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	<title>Comments on: Skeptic calling out to all Heisig fans</title>
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	<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/</link>
	<description>Japanese, Chinese, and a dash of Korean</description>
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		<title>By: Deandre</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-664</link>
		<dc:creator>Deandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-664</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been learning Japanese (earnestly) for about a year and a half. I tried using flashcards, the methodical way, however it wasn&#039;t for me. Instead I focused on grammar because whats the point of knowing words if you can&#039;t express a single thing right? I went to Japan and wandered around and just spoke to the natives in Japanese any chance I could get. In the end I made a lot of friends, and even though I&#039;m back in California I continue to make more Japanese friends via conversation usually entirely in Japanese.

After learning how to speak, writing became natural. I don&#039;t memorize kanji on purpose, it simply has a concrete meaning now to me. Now I have a small blog, and constantly write in Japanese.

Isn&#039;t the point of learning another language to be able to express yourself, and understand others?

I have a friend working on Heisig right now, while he works tirelessly studying from time to time I have to handle phone conversations, or make plans for the weekend, or explain about how I feel about this or that. The biggest motivation for me is being able to speak conversationally where Japanese people would usually prefer to use Japanese with me instead of English because of ease of understanding each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been learning Japanese (earnestly) for about a year and a half. I tried using flashcards, the methodical way, however it wasn&#8217;t for me. Instead I focused on grammar because whats the point of knowing words if you can&#8217;t express a single thing right? I went to Japan and wandered around and just spoke to the natives in Japanese any chance I could get. In the end I made a lot of friends, and even though I&#8217;m back in California I continue to make more Japanese friends via conversation usually entirely in Japanese.</p>
<p>After learning how to speak, writing became natural. I don&#8217;t memorize kanji on purpose, it simply has a concrete meaning now to me. Now I have a small blog, and constantly write in Japanese.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t the point of learning another language to be able to express yourself, and understand others?</p>
<p>I have a friend working on Heisig right now, while he works tirelessly studying from time to time I have to handle phone conversations, or make plans for the weekend, or explain about how I feel about this or that. The biggest motivation for me is being able to speak conversationally where Japanese people would usually prefer to use Japanese with me instead of English because of ease of understanding each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-663</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-663</guid>
		<description>RtK takes time. After &quot;learning&quot; the kanji I learned to organize them by their ON yomi reading, and since then I&#039;ve been learning the KUN yomi readings. I passed JLPT 2q without ever going to school or being involved in some homestay-Japan program, and I think a great deal of that is because of my familiarity with the kanji thanks to RtK.
It&#039;s merely a means to an end, I don&#039;t see why people get so angry about a method that helps you learn stuff. It&#039;s also helping my out a lot when it comes to Chinese, also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RtK takes time. After &#8220;learning&#8221; the kanji I learned to organize them by their ON yomi reading, and since then I&#8217;ve been learning the KUN yomi readings. I passed JLPT 2q without ever going to school or being involved in some homestay-Japan program, and I think a great deal of that is because of my familiarity with the kanji thanks to RtK.<br />
It&#8217;s merely a means to an end, I don&#8217;t see why people get so angry about a method that helps you learn stuff. It&#8217;s also helping my out a lot when it comes to Chinese, also.</p>
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		<title>By: Tonakai-san</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-662</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonakai-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-662</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got hold of Rtk 1 after I&#039;ve studied Jouyou Kanji and passed JLPT 3.

Not quite sure if it would be any more benefical for a beginner ; making up completely nonsense stories and trying to memorize them ; even before knwoing the reading - true meaning - not even a single word including it.

Regardless of I rie to get into it and make progress ; found out that remembering teh stories are way too hard and made no sense. And since they are made up ; I decided instead of trying to memorize them ; writing and reading words &amp; sentences including the kanji(s) are much more benefical.

While it&#039;s not a good way of studying writing and studying a word by itself since it is quite easy to forget ; let alone a single kanji ; this method does not even teach you the on readings. Studying vocabulary in sentences is a better way I believe. Take a look at this site if you haven&#039;t

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/

Finally ; Heisig method is useless and waste of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got hold of Rtk 1 after I&#8217;ve studied Jouyou Kanji and passed JLPT 3.</p>
<p>Not quite sure if it would be any more benefical for a beginner ; making up completely nonsense stories and trying to memorize them ; even before knwoing the reading &#8211; true meaning &#8211; not even a single word including it.</p>
<p>Regardless of I rie to get into it and make progress ; found out that remembering teh stories are way too hard and made no sense. And since they are made up ; I decided instead of trying to memorize them ; writing and reading words &amp; sentences including the kanji(s) are much more benefical.</p>
<p>While it&#8217;s not a good way of studying writing and studying a word by itself since it is quite easy to forget ; let alone a single kanji ; this method does not even teach you the on readings. Studying vocabulary in sentences is a better way I believe. Take a look at this site if you haven&#8217;t</p>
<p><a href="http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?referer=');">http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/</a></p>
<p>Finally ; Heisig method is useless and waste of time.</p>
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		<title>By: splice</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-668</link>
		<dc:creator>splice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-668</guid>
		<description>Anyone familiar with memorization techniques will understand quickly the purpose of the Heisig system.

You say &quot;You see, once you change Kanji into actual words, you’re in a whole different ball game&quot;, but to me all that says is that you don&#039;t understand what the Heisig method is for.

No, it is not meant to build your vocabulary. It isn&#039;t meant to teach you japanese. It has a simple purpose: teach you to recognize, write, and know the core meaning of kanji.

Just like you don&#039;t learn to read words before learning the alphabet, you don&#039;t learn to read japanese before learning the writing system.

You may not agree with it, but others have used it as a component in a comprehensive study system and learned japanese from scratch with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone familiar with memorization techniques will understand quickly the purpose of the Heisig system.</p>
<p>You say &#8220;You see, once you change Kanji into actual words, you’re in a whole different ball game&#8221;, but to me all that says is that you don&#8217;t understand what the Heisig method is for.</p>
<p>No, it is not meant to build your vocabulary. It isn&#8217;t meant to teach you japanese. It has a simple purpose: teach you to recognize, write, and know the core meaning of kanji.</p>
<p>Just like you don&#8217;t learn to read words before learning the alphabet, you don&#8217;t learn to read japanese before learning the writing system.</p>
<p>You may not agree with it, but others have used it as a component in a comprehensive study system and learned japanese from scratch with it.</p>
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		<title>By: taiko666</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>taiko666</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-667</guid>
		<description>Heisig teaches you how to read and write kanji LETTERS, not words. Just as can&#039;t read English words without knowing your ABC, you can&#039;t read kanji words without first knowing how to read the individual kanji letters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heisig teaches you how to read and write kanji LETTERS, not words. Just as can&#8217;t read English words without knowing your ABC, you can&#8217;t read kanji words without first knowing how to read the individual kanji letters.</p>
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		<title>By: meolox</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>meolox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-666</guid>
		<description>Please Tae don&#039;t knock the Heisig method, it might not work for you but that doesn&#039;t mean it doesn&#039;t work for others.

It&#039;s in my opinion the most effective way to not forget the writing of kanji.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please Tae don&#8217;t knock the Heisig method, it might not work for you but that doesn&#8217;t mean it doesn&#8217;t work for others.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s in my opinion the most effective way to not forget the writing of kanji.</p>
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		<title>By: DrJones</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-665</link>
		<dc:creator>DrJones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-665</guid>
		<description>I knew I forgot something. I didn&#039;t answer the question at the opening post.

I think Heisig&#039;s method can be used to learn vocabulary the same way that the one used for single kanji. You only have to chain the keywords of the kanji into the meaning of the word. That&#039;s the way I learned how to write 大丈夫 or 財布, for example.
Of course, Heisig&#039;s alone isn&#039;t enough for nanori.

On a side note, I&#039;ve been reading your grammar these days, and I&#039;m enjoying it immensely. Thank you for your effort!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew I forgot something. I didn&#8217;t answer the question at the opening post.</p>
<p>I think Heisig&#8217;s method can be used to learn vocabulary the same way that the one used for single kanji. You only have to chain the keywords of the kanji into the meaning of the word. That&#8217;s the way I learned how to write 大丈夫 or 財布, for example.<br />
Of course, Heisig&#8217;s alone isn&#8217;t enough for nanori.</p>
<p>On a side note, I&#8217;ve been reading your grammar these days, and I&#8217;m enjoying it immensely. Thank you for your effort!</p>
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		<title>By: DrJones</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-672</link>
		<dc:creator>DrJones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-672</guid>
		<description>Greetings everyone:
I have been studying japanese for some years now, and I&#039;m currently using Heisig&#039;s Book. I don&#039;t like it very much, but I have to agree that it is the best tool I&#039;ve found, as for now.

I think the problems don&#039;t rely on the method, which seems good, but on some deficiencies on its implementation that either difficult the learning, or annoy the reader. I&#039;ll try to describe both in the most objective way I can.

THE METHOD:
The underlying idea of the method consists in assigning &quot;nicknames&quot; (keywords) to groups of strokes, so that for each kanji, you have to remember less elements (two or three keywords, instead of strokes).

The keywords can belong to radicals, kanji, or groups of two or more existing keywords. For radicals and kanji, Heisig tries to preserve meaning and etymology, but   sometimes he assigns totally random nicknames for one reason or other.

Stories aren&#039;t necessary, but they chain together the keywords to the meaning, so that if you ever forget a character, you still have a way to reconstruct it if you recall the story (sort of like the secret question to recover a password). For most kanji, you should be able to go directly from keyword to writing without passing through the story. This is simmilar to the way japanese recall kanji, as far as I know, and allows for very FAST tracing of kanji (this is what I think Heisig meant with writing kanji as natives do).

GOOD NEWS:
- You learn kanji VERY, VERY quickly. It&#039;s pretty impresive.
- You become familiar and confident with kanji you learn, and can easily write and differenciate very simmilar kanji.
- Most of the keywords chosen (with awful exceptions) are useful translations of a kanji, which allows you to read words that you don&#039;t know.
For example, you might not know the word 公園, but if you know that the first kanji means &quot;public&quot; and the other &quot;park&quot;, you can understand it. (Note that you can treat this as silent reading, even though you can&#039;t pronounce this word aloud, and the trick doesn&#039;t work always).
- You end knowing more kanji than the average japanese.
- Additionally, I think fammiliarity with kanjis help while learning its pronounciation using the method suggested by Tae Kim.

BAD NEWS: (relative to the implementation, not the method)
- Heisig seems to want us to write the book for him. Unlike other methods, he stops providing stories after 500 or so kanji. It wouldn&#039;t have hurt to include at least one story for kanji, and let us decide if we want to make our own, or not.
Fortunately, people with internet connection can fix this problem using the stories on the &quot;Reviewing the Kanji&quot; site, otherwise I wouldn&#039;t recommend this book to anybody.
- Heisig has many poor choices of keywords. Some are ambiguous and no clue is given that could help to solve this (you must recurr to a kanji dictionary for this). Some useful keywords are wasted on kanjis that are only used for names, instead of being used where it makes more sense. For example, 吾has the keyword &quot;I&quot;, which would have been better spent on 私.
- Very weird order of kanji. Many basic kanjis are relegated to entries above 1500 with no good reason. As such, you either have to read the whole book, or learn the missing characters beforehand (something I recommend).
- It&#039;s a big commitment. While working with Heisig, I find I have less time to study grammar and vocabulary.
- The first book doesn&#039;t include the lectures, and the second book doesn&#039;t seem to be worth the purchase (it has the appearance of a poor kanji dictionary). This is not so bad if your learning material includes furigana (as mine), as I think is better to learn ONYOMI and KUNYOMI in context.

Due to those problems, I don&#039;t suggest to use this book as printed, but if you have the resources to check and fix its problems, it&#039;s simply priceless, which is the reason I use it.

I hope I didn&#039;t forget anything in this (long review), thanks everyone for their time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings everyone:<br />
I have been studying japanese for some years now, and I&#8217;m currently using Heisig&#8217;s Book. I don&#8217;t like it very much, but I have to agree that it is the best tool I&#8217;ve found, as for now.</p>
<p>I think the problems don&#8217;t rely on the method, which seems good, but on some deficiencies on its implementation that either difficult the learning, or annoy the reader. I&#8217;ll try to describe both in the most objective way I can.</p>
<p>THE METHOD:<br />
The underlying idea of the method consists in assigning &#8220;nicknames&#8221; (keywords) to groups of strokes, so that for each kanji, you have to remember less elements (two or three keywords, instead of strokes).</p>
<p>The keywords can belong to radicals, kanji, or groups of two or more existing keywords. For radicals and kanji, Heisig tries to preserve meaning and etymology, but   sometimes he assigns totally random nicknames for one reason or other.</p>
<p>Stories aren&#8217;t necessary, but they chain together the keywords to the meaning, so that if you ever forget a character, you still have a way to reconstruct it if you recall the story (sort of like the secret question to recover a password). For most kanji, you should be able to go directly from keyword to writing without passing through the story. This is simmilar to the way japanese recall kanji, as far as I know, and allows for very FAST tracing of kanji (this is what I think Heisig meant with writing kanji as natives do).</p>
<p>GOOD NEWS:<br />
- You learn kanji VERY, VERY quickly. It&#8217;s pretty impresive.<br />
- You become familiar and confident with kanji you learn, and can easily write and differenciate very simmilar kanji.<br />
- Most of the keywords chosen (with awful exceptions) are useful translations of a kanji, which allows you to read words that you don&#8217;t know.<br />
For example, you might not know the word 公園, but if you know that the first kanji means &#8220;public&#8221; and the other &#8220;park&#8221;, you can understand it. (Note that you can treat this as silent reading, even though you can&#8217;t pronounce this word aloud, and the trick doesn&#8217;t work always).<br />
- You end knowing more kanji than the average japanese.<br />
- Additionally, I think fammiliarity with kanjis help while learning its pronounciation using the method suggested by Tae Kim.</p>
<p>BAD NEWS: (relative to the implementation, not the method)<br />
- Heisig seems to want us to write the book for him. Unlike other methods, he stops providing stories after 500 or so kanji. It wouldn&#8217;t have hurt to include at least one story for kanji, and let us decide if we want to make our own, or not.<br />
Fortunately, people with internet connection can fix this problem using the stories on the &#8220;Reviewing the Kanji&#8221; site, otherwise I wouldn&#8217;t recommend this book to anybody.<br />
- Heisig has many poor choices of keywords. Some are ambiguous and no clue is given that could help to solve this (you must recurr to a kanji dictionary for this). Some useful keywords are wasted on kanjis that are only used for names, instead of being used where it makes more sense. For example, 吾has the keyword &#8220;I&#8221;, which would have been better spent on 私.<br />
- Very weird order of kanji. Many basic kanjis are relegated to entries above 1500 with no good reason. As such, you either have to read the whole book, or learn the missing characters beforehand (something I recommend).<br />
- It&#8217;s a big commitment. While working with Heisig, I find I have less time to study grammar and vocabulary.<br />
- The first book doesn&#8217;t include the lectures, and the second book doesn&#8217;t seem to be worth the purchase (it has the appearance of a poor kanji dictionary). This is not so bad if your learning material includes furigana (as mine), as I think is better to learn ONYOMI and KUNYOMI in context.</p>
<p>Due to those problems, I don&#8217;t suggest to use this book as printed, but if you have the resources to check and fix its problems, it&#8217;s simply priceless, which is the reason I use it.</p>
<p>I hope I didn&#8217;t forget anything in this (long review), thanks everyone for their time!</p>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-669</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-669</guid>
		<description>I never did like polls much but I will write up a final post summing up all the comments and opinions everybody has kindly provided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never did like polls much but I will write up a final post summing up all the comments and opinions everybody has kindly provided.</p>
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		<title>By: Bjorn</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2007/07/15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/comment-page-2/#comment-671</link>
		<dc:creator>Bjorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2007-07-15/skeptic-calling-out-to-all-heisig-fans/#comment-671</guid>
		<description>I have finished Remembering the Kanji and I liked it. I think everything has been said so I think a nice addition/conclusion to the post/comments would be a poll which would go something like this:
1.) I used RtK and it helped a lot (would recommend it to others) ,
2.) I used RtK and I didn&#039;t like it (would not recommend it).
3.) I looked at RtK and put it away after a few glances because I didn&#039;t like it.
4.) I first heard about RtK on this post.
Do you think this a doable Tae Kim?
Best regards,
Bjorn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have finished Remembering the Kanji and I liked it. I think everything has been said so I think a nice addition/conclusion to the post/comments would be a poll which would go something like this:<br />
1.) I used RtK and it helped a lot (would recommend it to others) ,<br />
2.) I used RtK and I didn&#8217;t like it (would not recommend it).<br />
3.) I looked at RtK and put it away after a few glances because I didn&#8217;t like it.<br />
4.) I first heard about RtK on this post.<br />
Do you think this a doable Tae Kim?<br />
Best regards,<br />
Bjorn</p>
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