Comments on: The NEW 常用漢字 and why we shouldn’t give a damn http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/ Japanese, Chinese, and a dash of Korean Tue, 07 Feb 2012 06:42:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Paul http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-9059 Paul Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:57:37 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-9059 「亜」 is actually a pretty handy one to know I've found. Not so much for Japanese per se, but it's a good thought exercise on learning stroke order (espeically when you consider the alternate form) and something that you can pick up commonly on other mainland Asian signage alongside characters that you DO use in Japanese. I wonder if this is perhaps a rationale behind its continued inclusion? As Polak mentioned (some 2 years ago, -- oh the joys of your post tags and Highlists list --) being a part of 東亜, it's a good indicator when your geographical neighbours are perhaps saying stuff about you. ;) Of course, without knowing that character "uselessly" from glancing at the Joyo list, I'd also never have started seeing it bloomin' everywhere in architecture. Gah. Cannot be unseen. Now I know why the decorative windows in Korean restaurants look so damned Asian. 「亜」 is actually a pretty handy one to know I’ve found. Not so much for Japanese per se, but it’s a good thought exercise on learning stroke order (espeically when you consider the alternate form) and something that you can pick up commonly on other mainland Asian signage alongside characters that you DO use in Japanese. I wonder if this is perhaps a rationale behind its continued inclusion? As Polak mentioned (some 2 years ago, — oh the joys of your post tags and Highlists list –) being a part of 東亜, it’s a good indicator when your geographical neighbours are perhaps saying stuff about you. ;)

Of course, without knowing that character “uselessly” from glancing at the Joyo list, I’d also never have started seeing it bloomin’ everywhere in architecture. Gah. Cannot be unseen. Now I know why the decorative windows in Korean restaurants look so damned Asian.

]]> By: Matt K http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-7711 Matt K Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:32:48 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-7711 I think the point was that a lot of kanji included in Joyo are there because of their frequency in names. Many archaic kanji are included in Joyo because kids need to be able to read names; of course, that's obviously not true of the list as a whole -- however, if not for including at least some of these name kanji I imagine elected officials would be publicly misreading noteworthy individuals unusual names more often. Also, what was the bit about Heisig and JLPT? I don't think anyone suggested that the two were the same; one's a stepping stone, and the other's a test for if you really want to see how good your Japanese is on a particular scale -- JLPT is cool and all, and I buy drinks for my 1-kyu friends but when it came to getting jobs in Japan, every company I've known someone to apply to had their own test: learn Japanese for yourself, and if JLPT motivates you, awesome. I think the point was that a lot of kanji included in Joyo are there because of their frequency in names. Many archaic kanji are included in Joyo because kids need to be able to read names; of course, that’s obviously not true of the list as a whole — however, if not for including at least some of these name kanji I imagine elected officials would be publicly misreading noteworthy individuals unusual names more often. Also, what was the bit about Heisig and JLPT? I don’t think anyone suggested that the two were the same; one’s a stepping stone, and the other’s a test for if you really want to see how good your Japanese is on a particular scale — JLPT is cool and all, and I buy drinks for my 1-kyu friends but when it came to getting jobs in Japan, every company I’ve known someone to apply to had their own test: learn Japanese for yourself, and if JLPT motivates you, awesome.

]]> By: taekk http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1543 taekk Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:24:47 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1543 I doubt it, seeing as how there's another list for characters used in names not in the 常用漢字 list called 人名用漢字. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E5%90%8D%E7%94%A8%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97 I doubt it, seeing as how there’s another list for characters used in names not in the 常用漢字 list called 人名用漢字.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%.....2%E5%AD%97

]]> By: Daniel http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1541 Daniel Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:34:33 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1541 In an attempt to validate why the 常用漢字 list is whack, I asked nearly all my (English-learning) students about it and they all said it was a list for name-usage. Considering this it's not so crazy. That first 漢字、亜 is used in quite a few names. In fact, I don't have any students that haven't proclaimed this as not a list only used for naming children. That considered, it is of no used to J-2nd language learners. Let's just ignore it. It appears to be for what 漢字 you can use for naming Japanese children, and that's about it. Nothing more, nothing less. In an attempt to validate why the 常用漢字 list is whack, I asked nearly all my (English-learning) students about it and they all said it was a list for name-usage.

Considering this it’s not so crazy. That first 漢字、亜 is used in quite a few names. In fact, I don’t have any students that haven’t proclaimed this as not a list only used for naming children.

That considered, it is of no used to J-2nd language learners. Let’s just ignore it. It appears to be for what 漢字 you can use for naming Japanese children, and that’s about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

]]> By: taekk http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1545 taekk Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:49:18 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1545 逆にずっと今まで「韓」が入ってなかったんだよ！それ、どう思う？？どう考えてもおかしいでしょ？ 逆にずっと今まで「韓」が入ってなかったんだよ！それ、どう思う？？どう考えてもおかしいでしょ？

]]> By: pOLAK http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1544 pOLAK Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:42:55 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1544 おお！ 「韓」も含まれる！ 韓国はいつも漢字で書くから、よくした。 おお！
「韓」も含まれる！
韓国はいつも漢字で書くから、よくした。

]]> By: pOLAK http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1542 pOLAK Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:54:19 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1542 i LEARN JAPANESE TOO... BUT 亜 IS USEFUL 東亜 i LEARN JAPANESE TOO…
BUT 亜 IS USEFUL
東亜

]]> By: Susie http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1540 Susie Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:40:51 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1540 I learned kanji (well, at least 1400 of them so far) through the book by Henshall, which, yes, is based on the jouyou list. The book is divided by six different "grades" which encompass about 1000 of the jouyou kanji and then about 1000 more "general use" kanji. I do stand in agreement with you that this is a practically useless way to learn kanji, and that many of them that I have learned through the book I have never seen in writing. I didn't know this at the time I bought the book however, and I got quite far through before I realized there wasn't much stock to be put in it. The main thing that it did benefit me in was in learning new vocabulary. My reading/writing skills are way ahead of my speaking/listening skills and it's safe for me to say that I knew way too much kanji before I started getting into vocab. Since I already knew all the readings for the kanji, memorizing was a snap. It also was a way to keep my memorizing skills sharp by memorizing random things I would never need to know. This sounds silly, I know, but in the long run it wasn't so bad. Granted, I do have 500 more kanji to go, and I have a habit of making studying harder on myself than most people do. The characters that jouyou doesn't cover like 俺 I simply picked up along the way. In my opinion, no one's going to get it completely right when the inconsistency of a language is involved. I learned kanji (well, at least 1400 of them so far) through the book by Henshall, which, yes, is based on the jouyou list. The book is divided by six different “grades” which encompass about 1000 of the jouyou kanji and then about 1000 more “general use” kanji.

I do stand in agreement with you that this is a practically useless way to learn kanji, and that many of them that I have learned through the book I have never seen in writing. I didn’t know this at the time I bought the book however, and I got quite far through before I realized there wasn’t much stock to be put in it.

The main thing that it did benefit me in was in learning new vocabulary. My reading/writing skills are way ahead of my speaking/listening skills and it’s safe for me to say that I knew way too much kanji before I started getting into vocab. Since I already knew all the readings for the kanji, memorizing was a snap. It also was a way to keep my memorizing skills sharp by memorizing random things I would never need to know. This sounds silly, I know, but in the long run it wasn’t so bad. Granted, I do have 500 more kanji to go, and I have a habit of making studying harder on myself than most people do.

The characters that jouyou doesn’t cover like 俺 I simply picked up along the way. In my opinion, no one’s going to get it completely right when the inconsistency of a language is involved.

]]> By: nacest http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1539 nacest Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:01:40 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1539 What Raichu says makes sense. So perhaps it's more correct to say that the list is being "used" in the wrong way by many educational institutions, rather than "created" in the wrong way to begin with. The latter may still be true, but one should know what the goals are (which I don't :P ) in the schemes of the authors before deciding. What Raichu says makes sense. So perhaps it’s more correct to say that the list is being “used” in the wrong way by many educational institutions, rather than “created” in the wrong way to begin with. The latter may still be true, but one should know what the goals are (which I don’t :P ) in the schemes of the authors before deciding.

]]> By: mjf http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1538 mjf Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:27:23 +0000 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1538 "What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji." BTW, the KANJIDICT dictionary, which is accessible through Jim Breen's WWWJDIC server, includes frequency rankings for individual kanji. From the documentation: "The data is based on an analysis of word frequencies in the Mainichi Shimbun over 4 years by Alexandre Girardi." (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic_doc.html). You can find the analysis at this site (http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html) if you grep for Alexandre Girardi. “What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji.”

BTW, the KANJIDICT dictionary, which is accessible through Jim Breen’s WWWJDIC server, includes frequency rankings for individual kanji. From the documentation: “The data is based on an analysis of word frequencies in the Mainichi Shimbun over 4 years by Alexandre Girardi.” (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/.....c_doc.html). You can find the analysis at this site (http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html) if you grep for Alexandre Girardi.

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