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	<title>Comments on: The NEW 常用漢字 and why we shouldn&#8217;t give a damn</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/</link>
	<description>Japanese, Chinese, and a dash of Korean</description>
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		<title>By: taekk</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1543</link>
		<dc:creator>taekk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1543</guid>
		<description>I doubt it, seeing as how there&#039;s another list for characters used in names not in the 常用漢字 list called 人名用漢字.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E5%90%8D%E7%94%A8%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt it, seeing as how there&#8217;s another list for characters used in names not in the 常用漢字 list called 人名用漢字.</p>
<p><a href="http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E5%90%8D%E7%94%A8%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/_E4_BA_BA_E5_90_8D_E7_94_A8_E6_BC_A2_E5_AD_97?referer=');">http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%.....2%E5%AD%97</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1541</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1541</guid>
		<description>In an attempt to validate why the 常用漢字 list is whack, I asked nearly all my (English-learning) students about it and they all said it was a list for name-usage.

Considering this it&#039;s not so crazy.  That first 漢字、亜 is used in quite a few names.  In fact, I don&#039;t have any students that haven&#039;t proclaimed this as not a list only used for naming children.

That considered, it is of no used to J-2nd language learners.  Let&#039;s just ignore it.  It appears to be for what 漢字 you can use for naming Japanese children, and that&#039;s about it.  Nothing more, nothing less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an attempt to validate why the 常用漢字 list is whack, I asked nearly all my (English-learning) students about it and they all said it was a list for name-usage.</p>
<p>Considering this it&#8217;s not so crazy.  That first 漢字、亜 is used in quite a few names.  In fact, I don&#8217;t have any students that haven&#8217;t proclaimed this as not a list only used for naming children.</p>
<p>That considered, it is of no used to J-2nd language learners.  Let&#8217;s just ignore it.  It appears to be for what 漢字 you can use for naming Japanese children, and that&#8217;s about it.  Nothing more, nothing less.</p>
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		<title>By: taekk</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1545</link>
		<dc:creator>taekk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1545</guid>
		<description>逆にずっと今まで「韓」が入ってなかったんだよ！それ、どう思う？？どう考えてもおかしいでしょ？</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>逆にずっと今まで「韓」が入ってなかったんだよ！それ、どう思う？？どう考えてもおかしいでしょ？</p>
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		<title>By: pOLAK</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1544</link>
		<dc:creator>pOLAK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1544</guid>
		<description>おお！
「韓」も含まれる！
韓国はいつも漢字で書くから、よくした。</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>おお！<br />
「韓」も含まれる！<br />
韓国はいつも漢字で書くから、よくした。</p>
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		<title>By: pOLAK</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1542</link>
		<dc:creator>pOLAK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1542</guid>
		<description>i LEARN JAPANESE TOO...
BUT 亜 IS USEFUL
東亜</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i LEARN JAPANESE TOO&#8230;<br />
BUT 亜 IS USEFUL<br />
東亜</p>
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		<title>By: Susie</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1540</link>
		<dc:creator>Susie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1540</guid>
		<description>I learned kanji (well, at least 1400 of them so far) through the book by Henshall, which, yes, is based on the jouyou list. The book is divided by six different &quot;grades&quot; which encompass about 1000 of the jouyou kanji and then about 1000 more &quot;general use&quot; kanji.

I do stand in agreement with you that this is a practically useless way to learn kanji, and that many of them that I have learned through the book I have never seen in writing. I didn&#039;t know this at the time I bought the book however, and I got quite far through before I realized there wasn&#039;t much stock to be put in it.

The main thing that it did benefit me in was in learning new vocabulary. My reading/writing skills are way ahead of my speaking/listening skills and it&#039;s safe for me to say that I knew way too much kanji before I started getting into vocab. Since I already knew all the readings for the kanji, memorizing was a snap. It also was a way to keep my memorizing skills sharp by memorizing random things I would never need to know. This sounds silly, I know, but in the long run it wasn&#039;t so bad. Granted, I do have 500 more kanji to go, and I have a habit of making studying harder on myself than most people do.

The characters that jouyou doesn&#039;t cover like 俺 I simply picked up along the way. In my opinion, no one&#039;s going to get it completely right when the inconsistency of a language is involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned kanji (well, at least 1400 of them so far) through the book by Henshall, which, yes, is based on the jouyou list. The book is divided by six different &#8220;grades&#8221; which encompass about 1000 of the jouyou kanji and then about 1000 more &#8220;general use&#8221; kanji.</p>
<p>I do stand in agreement with you that this is a practically useless way to learn kanji, and that many of them that I have learned through the book I have never seen in writing. I didn&#8217;t know this at the time I bought the book however, and I got quite far through before I realized there wasn&#8217;t much stock to be put in it.</p>
<p>The main thing that it did benefit me in was in learning new vocabulary. My reading/writing skills are way ahead of my speaking/listening skills and it&#8217;s safe for me to say that I knew way too much kanji before I started getting into vocab. Since I already knew all the readings for the kanji, memorizing was a snap. It also was a way to keep my memorizing skills sharp by memorizing random things I would never need to know. This sounds silly, I know, but in the long run it wasn&#8217;t so bad. Granted, I do have 500 more kanji to go, and I have a habit of making studying harder on myself than most people do.</p>
<p>The characters that jouyou doesn&#8217;t cover like 俺 I simply picked up along the way. In my opinion, no one&#8217;s going to get it completely right when the inconsistency of a language is involved.</p>
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		<title>By: nacest</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1539</link>
		<dc:creator>nacest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1539</guid>
		<description>What Raichu says makes sense. So perhaps it&#039;s more correct to say that the list is being &quot;used&quot; in the wrong way by many educational institutions, rather than &quot;created&quot; in the wrong way to begin with. The latter may still be true, but one should know what the goals are (which I don&#039;t :P ) in the schemes of the authors before deciding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Raichu says makes sense. So perhaps it&#8217;s more correct to say that the list is being &#8220;used&#8221; in the wrong way by many educational institutions, rather than &#8220;created&#8221; in the wrong way to begin with. The latter may still be true, but one should know what the goals are (which I don&#8217;t <img src='http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  ) in the schemes of the authors before deciding.</p>
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		<title>By: mjf</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1538</link>
		<dc:creator>mjf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1538</guid>
		<description>&quot;What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji.&quot;

BTW, the KANJIDICT dictionary, which is accessible through Jim Breen&#039;s WWWJDIC server, includes frequency rankings for individual kanji.  From the documentation: &quot;The data is based on an analysis of word frequencies in the Mainichi Shimbun over 4 years by Alexandre Girardi.&quot; (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic_doc.html).  You can find the analysis at this site (http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html) if you grep for Alexandre Girardi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji.&#8221;</p>
<p>BTW, the KANJIDICT dictionary, which is accessible through Jim Breen&#8217;s WWWJDIC server, includes frequency rankings for individual kanji.  From the documentation: &#8220;The data is based on an analysis of word frequencies in the Mainichi Shimbun over 4 years by Alexandre Girardi.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic_doc.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.csse.monash.edu.au/_jwb/kanjidic_doc.html?referer=');">http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/.....c_doc.html</a>).  You can find the analysis at this site (<a href="http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html?referer=');">http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/nihongo/00INDEX.html</a>) if you grep for Alexandre Girardi.</p>
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		<title>By: Raichu</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1535</link>
		<dc:creator>Raichu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1535</guid>
		<description>&quot;Every word that is forced into obscurity just because it includes a kanji that is not on the jouyou list is a loss for the Japanese language.&quot;

Oh good, it makes the Japanese language easier to learn because it gets rid of hard words...

Just joking. I&#039;m finding Japanese is a very rich and expressive language, although admittedly its broad vocabulary makes it harder to learn.

I think you do make some valid points.

&quot;an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji&quot;

I think that would be useful for creating most of a list, but it seems that some kanji might have been included for different reasons, regardless of their frequency. Unless we know what those reasons were, we can&#039;t say they are invalid, so it&#039;s hard to argue either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Every word that is forced into obscurity just because it includes a kanji that is not on the jouyou list is a loss for the Japanese language.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh good, it makes the Japanese language easier to learn because it gets rid of hard words&#8230;</p>
<p>Just joking. I&#8217;m finding Japanese is a very rich and expressive language, although admittedly its broad vocabulary makes it harder to learn.</p>
<p>I think you do make some valid points.</p>
<p>&#8220;an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that would be useful for creating most of a list, but it seems that some kanji might have been included for different reasons, regardless of their frequency. Unless we know what those reasons were, we can&#8217;t say they are invalid, so it&#8217;s hard to argue either way.</p>
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		<title>By: taekk</title>
		<link>http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008/08/14/the-new-joyo-kanj-and-why-we-shouldnt-give-a-damn/comment-page-1/#comment-1536</link>
		<dc:creator>taekk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/?p=320#comment-1536</guid>
		<description>What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji. That way, it&#039;s actually based on hard data and not a committee. The list of works analyzed should also be released and maintained so you&#039;ll know of any bias in the source data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I think would be much more useful is an analysis of a large collection of works and solid statistical data on the frequency of each kanji. That way, it&#8217;s actually based on hard data and not a committee. The list of works analyzed should also be released and maintained so you&#8217;ll know of any bias in the source data.</p>
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