Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

koffiegast

Member

particles ni and wa combined

Hello there, just registered as I got into Japanese.

I read thru most grammar sections and start to remember pretty much everything.

But one thing is literally driving me nuts. Giving me headaches trying to comphrend combining targetative/subject :')
(as for me it wouldnt make sense to use both to say the previous part was the whole target, as target alone does that or is it just my sucky knowledge of the japanese grammer?)

its when the particles ni and wa are combined in the form of:
にわ

Once before I found an explanation but I forgot it, after searching with different keys which lead to no success.
It seems creating a new topic was the only way.

Please enlighten me
onegai shimasu!

Last edited by koffiegast (2007-05-16 19:35:08)

Faumdano

Moderator

Re: particles ni and wa combined

には
is usually just as simple as に+は but also has some slightly unique uses.

(連語)
〔補説〕 格助詞「に」に係助詞「は」の付いたもの
［1］    時・場所・対象、比較の基準など、格助詞「に」で示されるものに、特にとりたてる気持ちを表す係助詞「は」の意味が加えられる。
    ・    九時―行きます
    ・    空―たくさんの星が輝いている
    ・    今度の旅行―行きません
    ・    君―とてもかなわないよ
Adds emphasis to the role に plays.

［2］    尊敬の対象となる人物を主語として表すことを避け、間接的に尊敬の意を表す。
    ・    先生―お変わりもなくお過ごしのこととお喜び申しあげます
Plays the role that が・を would normally play in a sentence that expresses respect for someone (honourific terms) to avoid casting that person as a direct object / subject.

［3］    （「…には…が」の形で、動詞・形容詞などを重ねて）その動詞・形容詞などの意を強めて言い表す。
    ・    行く―行くが、何の自信もない
    ・    ほしい―ほしいが、いっこうくれそうにもない
Used in a pattern to add emphasis to a verb/adjective.

［4］    「…する時には」「…の場合には」「…したら」などの意の、軽い仮定条件を表す。古語では、「むには」の形で推量の助動詞「む」を受けることが多い。
    ・    始発に乗る―四時に起きなくてはならない
    ・    かぐや姫すゑむ―、れいのやうには見にくしとのたまひて〔出典： 竹取〕
Used to mean 「…する時には」「…の場合には」「…したら」. That is, a weak condition.

［5］    「…にとっては」の意を表す。
    ・    ぼく―、ぼくの考えがある
    ・    まめやかの心の友―、はるかにへだたる所のありぬべきぞわびしきや〔出典： 徒然 12〕
Used to express にとっては

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-05-16 19:50:47)

---

蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

taniwha

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Poor koffiegast, just starting out and getting a full on dictionary entry. Well, がんばれ

koffiegast: unless you've already found it, I highly recommend rikaichan. I also very much recommend using a Japanese dictionary (Faumdano probably got the above from yahoo) as much as possible. Struggling to understand one will push your Japanese, and you get a more accurate definition than any Japanese-English dictionary will give you.

In general, piled up particles just pile up the meanings, too, but you can get some subtleties, as Faumdano pointed out.

Last edited by taniwha (2007-05-16 20:07:29)

---

Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

我流チン

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Question arises: Is there a にわ?

---

・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

taniwha

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Yes, it's where you grow your 花 and  野菜 (it's also two birds/rabits) (probably not what you meant)

庭には二羽鶏が居る （にわにはにわにわとりがいる）

[edit]correct kanji for いる

Last edited by taniwha (2007-05-16 23:25:34)

---

Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

我流チン

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

---

・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

taniwha

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Except I messed up and used the wrong kanji for いる

---

Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

SeanS

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

仁和さんの庭には二羽鶏が俄に鰐をたべた。:P

koffiegast

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Question arises: Is there a にわ?

lol

how stupid XD

of course i meant には
... omg cant believe i made that error

Ill read Faumdano's description thoroughly. Many thanks!

About sites using, Taniwha, I myself use this site, a dutch site for the jouyou kanji list and jisho.org for dictionary.
And ive rikaichan installed .

Thanks for the posts.

Update:

には
is usually just as simple as に+は .

What do you suggest for reading 'combined' には, in a english way. As in making it a target and the subject? As thats mostly my problem.

Last edited by koffiegast (2007-05-17 07:56:58)

我流チン

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Switch に to the front and use a "," to replace the は is the usual routine.
"庭には~" becomes "In the garden, ~"

---

・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

pazu

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

All About Particles (Chino, 1991 ISBN 4-7700-2781-8) says:

「は」 used to show contrast between two items or ideas, both of with are signified by は

[...]

In some cases, only one item or idea is explicitly mentioned. For example, in the following sentence the implication is that the person might go to a cheaper restaurant.

高いから、あのレストランには行きません。

Here には is acting just as に＋は, with に marking the target and は showing contrast (between that restaurant and an implicit cheaper one).

Chino-sensei offers another explanation in How to Tell the Difference Between Japanese Particles (Chino, 2005 ISBN 4-7700-2200-X) says:

には indicates not the subject per se, but the person to whom a following judgment applies. Equivalent to the English "for".

部長：山形君、明日から君に、新しい企画の責任者として、働いてもらいたいんだけど、どうかな？
山形：えっ、僕にですか？　そんな重大な仕事僕にはとても無理です。

姉：このブラウス、着てくれる？
妹：いいけど、どうして？
姉：私には、もう派手すぎるから…

I hope it helps.

Last edited by pazu (2007-05-19 09:12:31)

---

--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

我流チン

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Bah! I missed those notes on page 12.

Is there enough difference between the two books to make "How to Tell the Difference" worth buying, Pazu?

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-05-19 09:23:57)

---

・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

pazu

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Is there enough difference between the two books to make "How to Tell the Difference" worth buying, Pazu?

Amazon delivered them both yesterday, so I haven't finished reading any of them yet :-) But "How to tell the difference" seems better organized and more through than "All about particles".

In "How to tell...", particles are organized by function (i.e., particles indicating time, particles indicating direction, etc), so it's great for when you know what you want to express, but you're not sure about which particle to use. Also, since particles with similar functions are grouped together, the sometimes subtle differences between them are more apparent, and throughly discussed. I also like the examples in this book better than those in "All about..." -- they seem more like real world conversations instead of grammar book excerpts.

On the other hand, "All about..." seems more convenient as a reference book, when you're reading a sentence, and you're not sure about what function a certain particle performs in that sentence.

---

--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

我流チン

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Great, they complement each other then. I'll add it to my trophy cache next trip to the Amazon.

Kodansha and/or Amazon should be paying TaeKim a commission for all the books that get recommended between members here.

---

・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

pazu

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Kodansha and/or Amazon should be paying TaeKim a commission for all the books that get recommended between members here.

Well, there's Amazon Associates. Tae Kim could join the referral program and tell us how to link to Amazon using his associate ID or whatever Amazon uses to track referrals (or maybe modify PunBB to add a BBCode tag that links a ISBN number to Amazon).

Edit: PunBB doesn't seem to have a formal extension mechanism for BBCode tags. So I hacked it's source code, and came up with a patch to add a new tag. With this patch applied, a PunBB instalation transforms text like:

[asin=477002200X]How to tell the difference...[/asin]

Into a link to the Amazon product identified by the supplied ASIN. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number, and for books, it's the same as the ISBN number. The generated link will contain the site's administrator Amazon Tracking ID, which needs to be defined in config.php. So you need to add something like this in PunBB's config.php:

$amazon_id = 'w099-20';

Fun 15 minutes of hacking

Last edited by pazu (2007-05-19 13:00:40)

---

--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

taekk

Administrator

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Ha ha, thanks but I'm too lazy to go through the hassle.

-Tae Kim

koffiegast

Member

Re: particles ni and wa combined

Many thanks all