Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

QKlilx

Member

Potential Form

I was just reviewing potential form to see if I could learn anything new, and when I did this a Japanese friend of mine came to talk to me. He started reading the page because he wanted to know what kind of grammar I was looking up, and he pointed this out:

For example the following sentences are incorrect.

（誤）　富士山を登れた。
（誤）　重い荷物を持てます。

Here are the corrected versions:
（正）　富士山が登れた。- Was able to climb Fuji-san.
（正）　重い荷物が持てます。- Am able to hold heavy baggage.

He said that while the sentences about baggage are correct examples, the Mt. Fuji ones are wrong. He called over a friend of his (these are both native speakers studying English) to clarify, and they agreed that to say "I was able to climb Mt. Fuji" you would use the を particle. They said that using が makes it sound like Mt. Fuji did the climbing. Add on the topic particle and apparently you have a "double subject," as they called it.

Perhaps the example should be changed. They don't know enough English to properly tell me why this particular example is wrong and I don't know enough Japanese to understand an explanation.

我流チン

Member

Re: Potential Form

（正）　富士山が登れた。- Was able to climb Fuji-san.　→　（私に）富士山が登られた
（正）　富士山が登れた。- Am able to hold heavy baggage. →　富士山が登られた

かもしれない　

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-07-31 14:45:02)

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・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

Osaka_Joe

Member

Re: Potential Form

I guess you need a more grammatically well defined explanation, but . . .

Both 重い荷物を持てます and 重い荷物が持てます sound OK to me.

The problem is 登れた.　
To me, both 富士山が登れた and 富士山を登れた sound strange.
I prefer 富士山に登れた.
I am not sure which particle 登る requiers grammatically, but I guess it depends on what you climb.
For instance,
山に登る　climb the mountain.
ステージに登る  climb up on the stage
Also のぼる can be written as 上る
鮭が川を上る　（さけが　かわを　のぼる） The salmon swims up the river.

Moreover, 山に登れた itself might need a bit more attention, because it implies, to some extent, like "You had been banned to climb the mountain and finally you were permitted to do so."  When it means something like 'conquered Mt. Fuji'. it might be better to say something like 富士山の登頂に成功した literally "(I) succeeded to climb the summit of Mr. Fuji."

Last edited by Osaka_Joe (2007-08-01 02:29:02)

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夫学須静也、才須学也。  非学無以広才、非志無以成学。
学問は静から才能は学から生まれる。　学ぶことで才能は開花し、志がなければ学問の完成はない。

我流チン

Member

Re: Potential Form

Osaka Joeさん：

I am not sure which particle 登る requiers grammatically, but I guess it depends on what you climb.
For instance,
山に登る　climb the mountain.

I should have remembered before this. Your choice of に is the correct one. 登る being intransitive, it can't take an object, so を can't be used.

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・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか？
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

愛の天使

Member

Re: Potential Form

But what about 山が登れる。   ?

Faumdano

Moderator

Re: Potential Form

But what about 山が登れる。   ?

のぼる　（上・登・昇） is a 自動詞　⇒　が

～にのぼる　to climb (up onto) ～
～をのぼる　to accend / climb through ～　（を　⇒　を通って・経由）
～がのぼる　～ climbs

So, if you switch all these to their potential:
～にのぼれる　is able to climb　～
～をのぼれる　is able to accend / climb through ～
～がのぼれる　～ is able to climb

So, for the last one, 山が登れる sounds like the mountain is doing the rising / climbing.

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-08-01 11:04:24)

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蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

taniwha

Member

Re: Potential Form

I've found 可能形 to be quite confusing as to which particles to use.

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Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

QKlilx

Member

Re: Potential Form

Faumdano's explanation seems to match my friends' the best. Thanks for the help. Is it possible to use は with this verb to make a new sentence?

bubblebath

Member

Re: Potential Form

Faumdano's explanation seems to match my friends' the best. Thanks for the help. Is it possible to use は with this verb to make a new sentence?

Yes, it is. 「富士山は登れた」 implies the speaker couldn't climb a certain another mountain.
               「重い荷物は持てます」 implies the speaker can't carry something else.

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Please correct my English.

Yokohama

Member

Re: Potential Form

So, for the last one, 山が登れる sounds like the mountain is doing the rising / climbing.

As for 山がのぼる(intransitive verb) sounds exactly like your explaining above, and I agree with you about 山に、山を.

The が in 山が登れる, however, expresses usually the surprising feeling of speaker, so it sounds more like "surprising enough, I'm able to climb the mountain today even though I've never expected to do such a thing owing to my serious injured legs" as （なんと、私は）山が登れる！