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#1 2007-08-04 13:16:03

alexp
Member

10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Hi Everyone,

So I'm looking for a rational way to learn the kanji, and I had this weird idea that, rather than study each kanji individually, trying to cram in all the on and kun readings, why not better learn actual words, and the kanji will be remembered as a side effect.

Now I understand JLPT 1 requires a vocabulary of 10,000 words, so there must be a published list of them somewhere? Actually what I realistically need is the vocabulary for JLPT 4 or 3, but anything helps.

Cheers.

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#2 2007-08-04 13:24:45

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

If such a list can't be found, you could just read novels and newspapers and you'll naturally encounter the important words as a side effect wink


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#3 2007-08-04 13:50:35

richvh
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

You can find vocabulary lists here, though they aren't without errors.

Studying words >> studying kanji; encountering words in context >> studying words


Richard VanHouten
[url=http://www.citlink.net/~richvh]ゆきの物語[/url]

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#4 2007-08-04 14:13:58

Kscnoko
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Kanji alone should only be studied as kunyomi. For onyomi it's best to study as groups of words. Often when two kanji combined the meaning is not quite clear.

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#5 2007-08-04 14:22:58

taekk
Administrator

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

It almost useless to learn more advanced words without context (not words like car or pen).
I really suggest getting as much reading as you can under your belt. It improves vocab and you'll need it for the reading section which I believe counts for the most points.

-Tae Kim

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#6 2007-08-05 02:49:47

QKlilx
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

The method I used to skip the 102 class at my college was to emphasize the study of kanji. For about a month and a half I studied 1st- and 2nd-grade kanji lists and memorized words that went with them. For each kanji I would learn 1-2 words on average. During that study period I covered around 150 kanji, making my vocabulary boost up by about 200 words. Granted, I forgot some of the kanji and some of the words, but I can still read most of the kanji. Having a penpal during this study period also helped, and making a second penpal a couple months later helped even more.

These days, without having actually studied the readings specifically, I can recall onyomi and kunyomi (admittedly they get mixed up at times) and read all or part of a word. Usually I won't know the meaning of the word unless the meaning is clear, but at least then I can look up the word later.

For me, the best study method is to study kanji and words that go with them. This will only get me so far, I suppose, but if it's any consolation, I know about enough kanji to pass JLPT 3, but I'm short about 200-300 vocabulary words. XD

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#7 2007-08-05 03:20:22

Koryo
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

alexp wrote:

Now I understand JLPT 1 requires a vocabulary of 10,000 words, so there must be a published list of them somewhere?

If your intent is to take the JLPT, don't forget that the specs for them state that words may be drawn from the word lists as well as any other words of that approximate level.  (My wording of the rules is paraphrased from second or third-hand knowledge that I haven't accessed in some time, so be warned. tongue)

In general, I agree with what others have said about encountering words in context.  Usually if I encounter a word in the context of a story, I'll remember it after looking it up once or twice.  I typically have to look up words with forced encounters a number of times as well as review them in order to actually remember them.

I've tried finding new words, then finding example sentences to give them a context, but for me at least, that hasn't worked nearly as well as reading words in the context of a story, since the latter have the whole store or at least the local train of thought to support them.

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-05 03:29:03)


「正しい判断は経験から生まれ、経験は間違った判断から生まれる。」

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#8 2007-08-08 20:08:40

alexp
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Thanks all for the suggestions; indeed reading actual text seems more productive. The problem now is finding suitable text; I think text with side-by-side English would be ideal since annotating the Japanese by hand sounds tedious.

There's a feature in MS Word that adds furigana to Japanese text (though it's only able to do about one sentence at a time...), so that would take care of the pronunciation part.

I'll try to find some side-by-side Japanese/English text; the only one I found so far was the Japanese Constitution tongue

PS This memorization technique sounds interesting, what do you guys think? http://johnplaceonline.com/study-smarte … -anything/

Last edited by alexp (2007-08-08 20:09:34)

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#9 2007-08-08 20:30:51

我流チン
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Breaking into Japanese Literature, Giles Murray (ed.), Kodansha Intl. (Pub.) ISBN 4-7700-2899-7: roughly half the 常用 kanji, Seven short stories in parallel text with a reasonably comprehensive dictionary reference at the bottom of each page. (don't believe the zero omission dictionary blurb) $US 19.95

Or if you're feeling really masochistic, a parallel text Bible.

Alternative approach, buy Manga that you can find translations for - subs readily available from places like http://www.anime-source.com/

As to the study tip: Not as sure fire as the blurb makes it sound, but one of the most effective techniques available.

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-08-08 20:38:56)


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#10 2007-08-08 20:40:46

richvh
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

If you read the introduction, you'll see he omits common kana-only words that a person ready for his text should already know (ko-so-a-do words, suru, naru and particles are specifically mentioned); the zero-omission really only applies to words with kanji.


Richard VanHouten
[url=http://www.citlink.net/~richvh]ゆきの物語[/url]

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#11 2007-08-08 20:41:57

taniwha
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Actually, avoiding English as much as possible is even better. If you lean on translations, you will never understand the Japanese.

It is much harder work (especially in the beginning), but looking up new words in a Japanese dictionary seems to help with remembering the meaning of the word. It certainly helps with understanding the word because the Japanese dictionaries go into much better detail on how a word is used, even for particles. Initially, it's fine to look up new words the Japanese dictionary uses in a J-E dictionary, but the more levels you can go in pure Japanese, the better the effect (though I sometimes run into tight definition loops, though not quite as bad as "recursion: see recursion" wink). The biggest gain from using a Japanese dictionary is it helps you learn to think in Japanese and avoid translating into English. Translating into English (even as brief phrases) slows you down and you won't be able to keep up with rapid speech.

Memorization like that link is a waste of time, energy and memory. You don't want to memorize anything (except maybe things like date systems). Instead, you want to understand. When you understand something, you will remember the important parts.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#12 2007-08-08 20:45:42

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

I'm in total agreement with Taniwha. Read and understand as much as you can in Japanese alone and look new words up in J-J dictionaries. If you have to use something like rikaichan for those definitions, that's still far superior to a one word english translation.


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#13 2007-08-08 21:11:56

Kscnoko
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Buy some Japanese books and read them without dictionary as much as possible.-Best advice

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#14 2007-08-08 21:15:59

pazu
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Add myself to the list of taniwha supporters on this matter. I wish I realized that earlier; I've been studying Japanese for a while now, but only recently gathered enough courage to read "real" Japanese material (彼氏彼女の事情 being my choice).

I can't find enough words to express how much my Japanese has improved since I started reading it. Sure, it's a lot of work, and I read only one or two pages each day, but it's worth it. I'm forced to look up words, and try to figure out the grammar for every sentence. Here I'd like to express my thanks to everyone on these forums, you people are helping me a lot.


--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

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#15 2007-08-08 22:10:09

scout
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

On the subject of reading and staying entirely in Japanese:  I was actually surprised to read some of the responses to ainotenshi's questionnaire a while back where most people said they never skip over things they don't know.  (Famdano's exception being when he was out and about reading a book without a computer.)  I've found recently that I spend way too much time in front of the computer, so I've been trying to spend more time with physical books.  I tried writing down notes on paper as to what I didn't know, but eventually found that to be fairly useless, since if I later looked it up in a dictionary, I hadn't written down enough context to remember how it fit in. 

At the moment, I've just been skipping over words I don't know -- and have been enjoying reading a lot more for it.  With the current book I'm reading, I can generally follow the plot and what people are talking about.  I've also found if I let myself go with the flow, I usually can get a decent idea of a word's meaning based on the context that follows it.  (I was usually gung-ho with a dictionary and as soon as I found a word I didn't know, I'd stop and look it up, completely forgetting to try to figure it out from what follows.)

I seem to be getting up a bit of a short-term visual memory for things I don't know.  This usually comes in handy when I'm reading text online where I _do_ look up almost everything that I don't know: I often see words and think 'Oh right, I remember also seeing that and not quite knowing what it was in that book I was reading.'

To be honest, I don't remember what I did when I was a kid and I hit words I didn't know -- I definitely don't remember running to the dictionary every five minutes.  I'm wondering if storing a bunch of unknowns for an indefinite period of time (until you get enough information to figure out what they mean) is actually a good thing and not just a lazy approach.  Regardless, it's vastly increased my enjoyment of what I read, which in the end is what keeps me going.

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#16 2007-08-08 22:48:54

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

That's definitely the way to get the most enjoyment out of your time. However, it's less efficient at learning new words in bulk. They trickle in if you "skip" stuff rather than come in huge torrents when you read for accuracy.


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#17 2007-08-08 22:57:40

taniwha
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

I'm lucky in that I have an electronic dictionary. I can look up words whenever and wherever I need to.

scout: as to what you did as a kid: you asked your parents every five minutes smile. When you were reading, most kids reading material is geared so they're not hitting new words very often. If you were a little more advanced, you still wouldn't have been hitting new words too often.

Yes, when I read through the ROD manga, I skipped a lot. Even though I had fun reading it, I didn't get anywhere near enough out of it. Now with kekkaishi, I only skip stuff I can't find at all (and I have 6 dictionaries to reference, so that's purely slangy stuff) and even then, I'll see if I can find more context to figure it out from (yay google). This is actually my second time through kekkaishi: first time I used edict a lot, this time I'm sticking to Japanese as much as possible. Yes, having to stop to look up words is annoying, but that annoyance is a motivator to remember the meaning.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#18 2007-08-09 08:28:55

我流チン
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Richvh wrote:

If you read the introduction, you'll see he omits common kana-only words that a person ready for his text should already know (ko-so-a-do words, suru, naru and particles are specifically mentioned); the zero-omission really only applies to words with kanji.

I did refer to the blurb - not to the book's own statements, which declare a zero omission dictionary for all kanji therein.

Scout wrote:

I definitely don't remember running to the dictionary every five minutes.

へえェ?実は子供の辞書は親
The toddler's "that" game, in which the child points at an object and says "that?" "car" next object, and the next, and the next, back to one of the prior objects - next object - repeat another prior object - next object; incessantly for half an hour or more. And as the child gets older, more sophisticated explanation sessions. Oddly, those sessions use concepts and words that the child already knows to provide the needed information - "Where come from babies?" (syntax shows a child too young to formulate sentences properly) "Mums and dads make them." (information tailored to level of development.)

Yesterday's little debacle involving a reading of Japanese dictionary entries and deriving a misperception due to a deficient understanding of より didn't highlight the risks of trying to use J-J dictionaries? The type of dictionary needed for early and even intermediate learners gives the headword with a full translation of Japanese entries. To date the only dictionary I have been able to source that even comes close to meeting that need is Genius.


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#19 2007-08-09 08:53:38

Koryo
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

I'm thinking of ordering チャレンジ小学国語辞典 to see if it makes forming an English-free base easier.  While the analytical side of me wants to look up the entry in the 日本国語大辞典, I understand that that's not how we natively learn a language.  We initially just learn the simplest of definitions and learn to deal with the host of connotations, alternate senses, and etymology should we care to later.  (Well, that's how I learnt, and I'm generalized from me to all of us. tongue)

On the other hand, I probably spend as much time wondering what the best way to learn is as opposed to actually just learning. >_>;;


「正しい判断は経験から生まれ、経験は間違った判断から生まれる。」

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#20 2007-08-09 09:24:39

我流チン
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Koryo wrote:

On the other hand, I probably spend as much time wondering what the best way to learn is as opposed to actually just learning.

Likewise, Koryo - but I had some success studying Koine Greek with a parallel text and two (Koine header, and  detailed  English explanation of terms) comprehensive dictionaries. Those dictionaries taught nuance and application (and importantly, implicitly pointed to the opportunities for misapplication.) I haven't found anything comparable for Japanese. One of my private "what is the best way to learn, why am I having so much trouble with this?" sessions recalled to mind what had made Koine so easy. The next few months were mostly spent trying to find similar resources, rather than actually studying.

Remember though, that "how we natively learn a language" has an expiry date - changes to brain structure post teens don't readily allow for that procedure to continue throughout life. Nonetheless, using terms and concepts already mastered to explain new terms and concepts wherever and in so far as possible remains the best teaching method.

(Double checking name - yup Koryo it is.)

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-08-09 09:36:18)


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#21 2007-08-09 10:01:12

scout
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

I was reading this post over at AJATT, and decided to give the Sanseido Wed Dictionary a try.  The definitions are a lot shorter, and it seems like they definitely don't have all of the senses of the word.  My only gripe is that a lot of the definitions don't have usage examples.

I think I'll see how much/long Sasuga would take to get チャレンジ小学国語辞典.  It looks pretty nice.  Though I wonder what happens if you don't know the reading ... it seems like everything is indexed in kana.  Perhaps that will have to remain a task for the computer, where I can input the characters directly to do a search.

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#22 2007-08-09 10:55:35

我流チン
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

For a Native English Speaker, which of these provides more intelligble information for, and less readily misunderstood interpretations of, 以上? 

Meikyou: wrote:

い‐じょう [以上]
―ジャウ [名]
①《数量・段階・程度などを表す語に付いて》それを基準としてそれより上。 「二〇歳―は参加資格がある(=一九歳は参加できない)」「一万円―は出せない(=一万円までなら出せる)」「高校生―は一般料金とする(=高校生は割引の対象外)」 数値を伴わないで程度をいう場合は、「彼の実力は僕―だ(=僕は彼に及ばない)」「予想―の(=予想を超えた)被害」「これ―は進めない(=ここまでは進める)」などのように、〈含まない〉と解される。⇒ 以下
②文章で、これまでに述べた事柄。 「―の説明で御理解を頂きたい」
③説明・手紙・名簿・目録・箇条書きなどの末尾で、列挙されたものがこれで終わる意を表す。 「私の説明は―です」「男性五名、女性三名、―八名」
④《動詞連体形+「―(は)」の形で、接続助詞的に》…からには。 「人間である―、人の道は守らねばならない」「こうなった―は一歩も引くな」 前提として事柄の決定的な成立を示し、その対処のしかたを述べる言い方。文末には決意・義務・禁止などの表現を伴う。

Genius: wrote:

いじょう [以上]
①[数量]
〔余り, 余, 残余, 強〕
more than ...
…より多い∥ More than one teacher was present. 2人以上の先生が出席した《◆訳に注意.ただし次のように多い数字は4000以上でよい》 / The number of unemployed college graduates amounts to more than 4, 000. 大学卒業生の未就職者は4000人以上に及んでいる.
... or [and] over
∥ children of twelve and over 12歳以上の子供《◆12歳を含む》 / It costs £10 and over. それは10ポンド以上する.
... or [and] more
∥ five or more promoters 5人以上の発起人《◆ above A, more than A, over Aなどは基本的に Aちょうどを含まないので, 「A以上」と厳密には一致しない. しかし, Aちょうどを特に考慮する必要がない場合には「A以上」の訳として用いることができる》.
... or [and] above
∥ 30 and above 30(とそれ)以上.
not less than ...
…ほど多くの.
▲pay five dollars and upward 5ドル以上払う / stay in Paris (for) over a month 1か月以上パリに滞在する.
②[程度]
**over
【前】(程度が)…より多く, …以上で《◆ more than の方が普通》(⇔under)∥ make an improvement over the previous sale 前回の売上げ以上の成績をあげる.
**above
【前】(程度の点で)…以上で[の, に]∥ be above average in intelligence 知能が普通以上だ / be above (the) normal 平均以上である / He values honor above [much more highly than] wealth. 彼は名誉を富以上[よりずっと上]のものと見ている.
*beyond
【前】[範囲・限界](…の範囲・限界)を越えて;…より以上に;…よりすぐれて(⇔within)∥ live beyond [above] one's income 収入以上の生活をする / beyond (all) expectation 予想以上に.
more than ...
《正式》[名詞・形容詞・副詞・動詞の前で] 十二分に;…以上で∥ He accomplished more than what was expected of him. 《略式》彼は期待以上のことをなしとげた / His debts amount to more than he can pay. 彼の負債は支払い限度以上に達している.
▲Our success exceeded our hope. 期待以上にうまくいった / show undue caution 必要以上に用心する / beyond O's wildest dream (人)の想像以上の[に].
③[今まで述べたこと]
〔上記, 上述〕

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-08-09 11:32:07)


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#23 2007-08-09 11:06:40

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

That's not the point though Garyuchin. The point is to learn to think in Japanese, not learn to translate Japanese into English. However, I can see how that particular dictionary would be good to get you on your feet as it were.


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#24 2007-08-09 11:19:00

我流チン
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

Understood (now) Faumdano. At that, though, it wouldn't matter which texts are used - learning to think in Japanese will come from the hearing and speaking more readily and reliably than reading and writing. Reading and writing for vocabulary, listening and speaking for grammar and conceptualisation. (with of course, a reasonable amount of interplay.)


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#25 2007-08-09 13:28:06

Kscnoko
Member

Re: 10,000 words for JLPT 1, is there a list of them?

I seriously believe that for many of us, though writing and reading are superb, the speaking level is horrible, and yet speaking is such an important part of the language. Yes we know all the grammar and rules, but speaking is just a different beast. The only one I think is to go into a Japanese environment and start to speak as much Japanese as possible.  If you cannot, try online conversation.

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