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#26 2005-09-27 12:20:12

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

IkimashoZ wrote:

Yes, you are.  You're just mad that I called you on it.  And unless taekk plans on banning me I will call you on it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I could go ranting about how wrong you are, but there I feel no necessarity. You do not reason your statement, and if you look through all posts once again you will see that I am not insulting you of any behavior but you do nothing but trying to make me feel bad by trying to make me look bad. So please consider who is trying to cause trouble here, and if you still think that it's me who the bad one then please go on and defend your cause to the end.

#27 2005-09-27 13:59:01

Re: A suggestion for the forum

emperor wrote:

ReceptviCanatvr fine that you have found a nice way to reason your misunderstanding from facts that state that I was using a wrong wording. Though considering I'm no English native speaker I cannot say that I am plagued with self-hatred for being stupid though.

I'm confused.  I was defending your use of "publish".  I thought that it was perfectly appropriate...



About the gay thing (This is rather disordered and disorganized;  I wrote it very hurriedly):

I would like to state first that I am not gay.  I wouldn't even bring up this point, if my being treated fairly and with equality weren't an issue.

I have met many many gay men in my life, most of whom act just like straight men.  You only think that gay men act strangely because the normal-acting gay men don't disclose the fact that they're gay.  The ones whom you know to be gay are the ones who can't help but advertise their gayness by their effeminate and womanly behaviour.  Most of the gay men whom I know have an interest in sports, videogames, etc... - all the things in which straight men are interested. 

Most of the stereotypical gay men identify themselves by their sexuality, making their whole lives to revolve around the fact that they're gay.  However, there are even more gay men who recognize that one's sexual preference is only a very small facet of a person's make-up, thinking it no more important than that they should like brownies over cake, who live very normal lives which you could hardly distinguish from the life of the average straight man.  Case in point: Person on MySpace whom I know who is gay and quite normal. Read his profile.  If you don't have a MySpace profile yourself, sign-up and look at his pictures;  you'll see just how normal he is.  (Please, do not send him hate mail or anything of the sort!!)

I know from personal experience that a suprising number of 'jock-types', who would seem on the outside to be the straightest of all, is [in agreement with 'number'] actually quite gay.  I have known several gay men who have married and had children and who only started exploring their sexuality in their late 40's, after having spent 20 years married to the woman (One such man is my uncle, Steve.)  The fact is that you can't know exactly who is gay and who isn't, just looking at the person and observing his behaviour.

Statistically, as many as 10% of the general population may be gay, so says a number of studies.  That's ten million gay men in the U.S. alone, and about three hundred million gay men in the world as a whole.  In fact, according to the Kinsey report published in the late 1940's, almost every single person in existence may be homosexual to one extent or another.  Kinsey said that there were very few exclusively heterosexual or exclusively homosexual people and that most people fell somewhere on a continuum of sexual preference.  Wikipedia

To those who would hate gay people on the basis of the teachings of The Bible:  The Bible only speaks about homosexuality a handful of times;  Jesus, however, speaks out against other 'sins' with a far greater frequency.  Homosexuality, in fact, isn't even numbered among the 'sins' which are generally considered to be the worst 'sins' of all (i.e. the Ten Commandments).  If the 'sins' of the Ten Commandments are the worst of them, then we can't even consider homosexuality to be as bad as lying.

There are studies, which are virtually incontrovertible, which show that the minds of men who are predominately homosexual are actually different - if only slightly - in structure to those of straight men, having the best of both the female brain and the male brain (this is a 'bridge-brain'.)  The corpus collosum, for example, in gay men is larger than in straight men, allowing the two hemispheres of the brain to communicate more, and with greater efficiency, endowing the man with an enhanced rational and emotional intelligence.  The greater the extent to which the mind of a man is similar to that of a woman, the more 'gay' the person's behaviour will be and the more he will be attracted to other men.  Because of this, the most intelligent men of history are more liable to be gay or to be "disordered" sexually than other men - either being gay, bisexual, or asexual.   (This isn't a hard and fast rule, however;  the fact of being a 'bridge-brain' doesn't necessarily doom one to being more homosexual than the average "hetero";  it merely increases one's chances of being more homosexual.)
::See, kids?  Being a homo is cool::  wink

At any rate, this nation of ours is so obsessed with sexuality.  It is really getting annoying.  A person's entire merit seems to be judged based on in what person he likes to put his dinky.  (Just watch T.V. for five freaking minutes!) There is so much more to a person and there is so much more to life. 

Hatred of homosexuals is the dernier cri in bigotry and prejudice;  when one form of prejudice goes out of fashion (hatred of blacks), those who would hate find another form (hatred of gays).


[edit]Homosexuality is perfectly natural with chimpanzees;  when the females aren't receptive, the males turn to one another for sexual gratification, and there may be an evolutionary reason for this.

[edit2]Women in general are far better at understanding language and communicating their feelings than men.  The more similar your brain is to that of a women (bridge-brain), the better at languages you will be.  Almost all truly intelligent men, all men who are good at languages, all men who have an interest in the sciences are bridge-brains.  An archetypically masculine brain is a stupid brain.

[edit3]The MySpace profile of another person I know, who is gay, very normal, and very interested in sports. Again, please respect his privacy and do not send him anything hateful or rude.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2005-09-28 04:00:56)

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#28 2005-09-27 14:06:41

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

ReceptviCanatvr wrote:
emperor wrote:

ReceptviCanatvr fine that you have found a nice way to reason your misunderstanding from facts that state that I was using a wrong wording. Though considering I'm no English native speaker I cannot say that I am plagued with self-hatred for being stupid though.

I'm confused.  I was defending your use of "publish".  I thought that it was perfectly appropriate...

If there is anything I have to apologize for in this 'topic' then it's the fact that I must have read your post not careful enough to interpret it correctly. I could name reasons and make up excuses, but I won't, since it does not change the fact that I made a mistake here. I'm truly sorry [I mean it].

#29 2005-09-27 15:18:52

Re: A suggestion for the forum

No problem.  smile


Now, don't forget to read my extremely loquacious and rambling post, everyone...

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#30 2005-09-27 21:27:33

IkimashoZ
Member

Re: A suggestion for the forum

ReceptviCanatvr wrote:

Statistically, as many as 10% of the general population may be gay, so says a number of studies.  That's ten million gay men in the U.S. alone, and about three hundred million gay men in the world as a whole.  In fact, according to the Kinsey report published in the late 1940's, almost every single person in existence may be homosexual to one extent or another.  Kinsey said that there were very few exclusively heterosexual or exclusively homosexual people and that most people fell somewhere on a continuum of sexual preference.

This post is not directed at anyone specifically.  It's intended as general information, just as RCanatvr's post was.  Thank you for posting all of this.  Your information (and Dally's as well) strikes me as very well informed.

So, knowing that there are millions of homosexual men and women out there with a vast array of different interests, and knowing that as more time passes, more of them will decide not only that it's okay to accept their feelings as a natural part of themselves, it stands to reason that you will have more and more people (not only gays themselves but also their friends and family) who will take an active stance against hatred, in whatever form it may appear.

Laughing at the fact that someone is hated is like laughing at the fact that they just got shot or had a heart attack.  It's like saying, "wow, something sad and painful that's not your fault happened to you.  That's so funny."  Even if you're not the one actively causing the misery, making jokes about that misery is cruel and cold-hearted.  And you'll and probably end up offending someone.  Sometimes people will be polite and try to gently explain to you that you have offended them.  If you're unlucky, the person might be so embittered that they fly off the handle and use words to describe you that are less than appropriate for a polite conversation.

If you choose to use language like this around me, that is your choice, but I will tell you, nicely, that you are being rude.

This site and this forum are for learning Japanese.  We are all here with this goal in mind.  If we are all to work together to teach ourselves and eachother, then the last thing we should be worrying about is whether someone's going to be using racial slurs or making homophobic comments.  Please understand (everyone) that there are many different people out there, and you may offend someone, even without intending to do so.  In such a case, even evidence of your simply reflecting on what you said/wrote will ease the offended person's mind and let them know that you care that you've hurt them.  Shutting them down immediately with no remorse whatsoever is probably a bad idea.

On a final note, I'm saddened by the fact that RCanatvr felt it was necessary to mention he's not gay in order to be taken seriously on this board.  I makes me wonder just what portion of those who frequent this board hold hateful and bigotted opinions.

Last edited by IkimashoZ (2005-09-27 21:30:55)


月:英会話を教える、 火:太鼓練習、 水:ゲームを作り、 木:ゲームを作り、 金:ゲームを作り、 土:太鼓練習、 日:ゲームを作り

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#31 2005-09-28 02:12:21

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Dude. I am not accepting that you are might want to be hinting that I am making fun of them. I clearly stated at the very post that I do not think of gay persons as something different and obviously I do not advertise this behavior. Also nobody thought RCanatvr was homosexual. Why would we? If he had to mention it then because of the flow of things and the need to clarify that.
With this, I insist that you keep your word and go annoying me forever. If you intend on breaking your word fine, but I'm not convinced. If you want to convince anybody, or at least me, write something with quotes and comment on it. Don't leave anything out, and completely show the situation. Don't just write what is on your mind, it fails to convince me. And I cannot imagine you convincing me, since no matter how long it took you failed to state proper reasoned arguments.

#32 2005-09-28 08:02:02

IkimashoZ
Member

Re: A suggestion for the forum

You know, I've been thinking a lot about this thread.  I have displayed the utmost respect for everyone here so far.  I have gone out of my way to be polite, calm and reserved.  Numerous times I caught myself writing comments that were vindictive, unproductive and unnecessary and replacing them with thoughts that expressed the same idea without being rude.

Well fuck that.

My first major gripe is with the board's administration.  That means you taekk.  You've obviously followed this thread.  You've obviously seen the hateful, cruel and obviously homophobic comments in this thread and the general hatred expressed towards me by the childish, homophobic asshole that is emperor.  As far as I'm concerned, everyone who read this thread without lambasting emperor and nipponman is as culpuble as a person who sees any kind of hate crime and turns a blind eye.  Granted, the original derogatory comment itself was only mildly offensive at best, but the comments of these two that followed were clearly within the realm of bigotry and hatred.

Nipponman, you need an attitude adjustment.  Dally is impinging on your right to be a homophobic prick?  Give me a break.  Granted it is your right to be a homophobic prick, but the fact that no one here has openly mocked or scorned you for it, the way they would if you were to mention a similiar hatred for blacks, hispanics or asians (how would you respond to that one taekk?) makes me sick to my stomach.  The only thing that makes me feel better than calling you a homophobic prick in public does is knowing that in fifty years or so people are going to mock and scorn people with attitudes as backwards and ignorant and yours.

Emperor, ditch the innocent routine.  It's pathetic and transparent.  Anyone with half a brain can see through it.  You're obviously unwilling to listen to anything I have to say, no matter how clearly, succinctly or frankly I state it, and your reasons for doing so were clear the moment you became defensive and arrogant.  You have some serious growing up to do, and you obviously have a lot to learn about interacting with people whose opinions differ from yours.  Oh, but that's right, I forgot.  Everything I say is inherently evil and wrong, so no point in listening to me, right?  In that case, I just have one final bit of advice: fuck you.

Well, this will most likely be my last post on this board.  You know what I say though?  Good fucking riddance.

じゃ、また!


月:英会話を教える、 火:太鼓練習、 水:ゲームを作り、 木:ゲームを作り、 金:ゲームを作り、 土:太鼓練習、 日:ゲームを作り

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#33 2005-09-28 09:26:32

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Well who is the person who needs experience communicating with persons who are of other opinion that yours? It's you. Look above. I said I would be willing to think about it if you gave reasons. I said it several times. Now you end up insulting me. And this is going to prove you right? Sure. If your experience of communicating with people who have different opinions leads to the conclusion that insulting them is the solution for the problem...then I simply must say that you, even if you won those arguments did nothing admirable.
Anyways taekk said he's busy so don't go complaining about him. And please also consider the following : he might not quiet think you are right.
And if he followed this topic, then he might have applied a certain logic that says that you leave people disputing until they find a solution. If you forbid talking about those problems only more problems will arise. So please just think about achieving this goal instead of complaining that people like me and nipponman are unworthy or unsuited to be writing in this board. I say with without the intend to insult you, but it rather sheems that you are desperate. It might simply be that you are desperate because you cannot answer my call for reaons.
So...I wanted to solve this extreme exaggeration with simple means but if that seems arrogant to you, fine there you have this post that expresses all that is necessary.
Lastly, let me give you a piece of reasoning one's standpoint.
Now let me show why I find your behavior inappropriate.
Let us leave out the beginning and go straight to the complaints about me, although the beginning leaves room for ciritism as well.
'You've obviously seen the hateful, cruel and obviously homophobic comments in this thread and the general hatred expressed towards me by the childish, homophobic asshole that is emperor. '
Don't judge that he sees it with the same eyes as you do [as mentioned above]. 'Hateful' 'cruel', 'homphobic'...show them. Show those 'hateful, cruel and OBVIOUSLY homophobic COMMENTS' to me. And don't just post anything, reason why you perceive them as such.
You said 'innocent routine'. Prove this on an example. I can only think that you are complaining that I am saying that I am not a rasicst or somebody with prejudices. But it's true. I'm not playing innocent. If you have no proves against it leave it be.
'pathetic' this is not more than an insult. I see no reason why you would need to write it. As above an example would have been good. None means that it is not justified.
'transparent', if this refers to me being easy to understand, fine. So?
'half a brain can see through it', so why are you involving disabled persons in this conflict? Or why are you saying that everybody including disabled persons would be the same opinion as you? It makes no sense. If it is so obvious prove it. If you cannot, just give it up.
'You have some serious growing up to do', thanks I am mature enough. Reaons please.
'and you obviously have a lot to learn about interacting with people whose opinions differ from yours. ' Refer to reasons above why I think that this applies to you.
'Everything I say is inherently evil and wrong, so no point in listening to me, right?', I never said this. Don't go making up things.
'I just have one final bit of advice: fuck you.', no need to common on that, right? Give me a reason why this was necessary.

I do not expect you to understand, and since you were unwilling to give reasons from the very beginning I do not expect you to begin doing it now. However with the hope that this post is a step towards solving, or at least ending this, I shall post this.

Last edited by emperor (2005-09-28 09:34:30)

#34 2005-09-28 09:53:32

Re: A suggestion for the forum

I'll be sorry to have you go, IkimashoZ.

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#35 2005-09-28 10:06:25

Re: A suggestion for the forum

emperor, I don't see why you would ever need a reason to treat people with respect and equality.  Do you truly need someone to delineate elaborate reasons why you should be kind and respectful?  That it is obvious that each person merits fair and kind treatment should suffice for you.  Is it not your will that this world, in which you live, should be as good as it can possibly be?  If indeed you do want this world to be a good one, you will see past the bigoted way of thinking, with which you have been inculcated, and treat all people with decency and respect.

Surely you do not countenance the hatred of people of other races, the same, you should not countenance that against people who, for genetic reasons, have contracted upon themsevles a certain way of being that is quite beyond their control.  (I am just assuming that you do not hate those whose skin color is not the same as yours.  If it is that you do hate such people, then surely Taekk would numbered among those whom you hate, being that he is Korean, no?)

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#36 2005-09-28 10:44:21

nipponman
Member

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Well, hopefully ikimasho, (before taekk bans you) you will be able to read this post. 

Nipponman, you need an attitude adjustment.  Dally is impinging on your right to be a homophobic prick?  Give me a break.  Granted it is your right to be a homophobic prick, but the fact that no one here has openly mocked or scorned you for it, the way they would if you were to mention a similiar hatred for blacks, hispanics or asians (how would you respond to that one taekk?) makes me sick to my stomach.  The only thing that makes me feel better than calling you a homophobic prick in public does is knowing that in fifty years or so people are going to mock and scorn people with attitudes as backwards and ignorant and yours.

This constant going back and forth, bickering doesn't work. So I'll be level-headed about this. Firstly, if I need an attitude adjustment, why are you cursing at people on this forum with practically no provocation? Not a spiteful question, but a hard-hitting one. Personally, I'm a Christian, and I believe that being gay is wrong. It is as simple as that. You believe it is perfectly fine to be gay, and that is fine. But why must you thrust your opinions and beliefs down other peoples throats? Why do you act like a child when people disagree with you? I don't think you're mature enough to be on this-or any other- forum. Because you lack the social skills necessary to disagree peaceably with others. Now, we've all gotten into spats, but as you can see, everyone is cool now, except you. So, you need to chill out, and change your attitude. Learn to respect other peoples decisions. Because if you don't you're just gonna blow your top every time someone says something to offend you/gay people. Finally, taekk, I think, deserves more respect than you give him. He has a lot of work to do, and he was gracious enough to give us a forum to discuss Japanese. So maybe you might wanna rethink your baseless assult against him.

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#37 2005-09-28 10:58:09

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

ReceptviCanatvr this time I would like you to read properly.
I never stated I hate people from other races or have prejudices of any other sort. Please reason your statement. I cannot stress this enough! Give examples!
Also you said I want reasons for being polite? Wait. I am asking for reasons why I am being judged evil [do I need to put it into caps so people will read it?] and why I am being insulted. Look at all the posts. Unfortunately it seems you really lack understanding of what I have written.
Edit: Usually I don't do what I am going to do now. Making a reason that other peoples lack a reason. Usually such conversations end with the people being unable to find a reason and notice that they are wrong. Here on the other hand there is only baseless complaining over and over. So I shall do something usually unthinkable: Copy and paste something of my own post that people seem to refuse reading, in order to reason why others cannot find a reason.
''Also please note that I am not particularly saying that homosexual people are strange nor am I saying that they should be disliked, but at least here they are strongly disliked by many people.''
As you can see
-I am saying gay persons are not strange. Isn't this a perfectly nice attitude??
-I am saying that I do not say that they should be disliked. Isn't this protecting them?
-I am saying that certain persons dislike them. It's fact.

Also I am saying that
-some Japanese are treating foreigners badly. It's fact.

Now ReceptviCanatvr, it's your turn to show my racism by quoting me. You will see that I am actually the one who wrote quiet little in this whole topic so it should not be too much to read.

Last edited by emperor (2005-09-28 11:19:15)

#38 2005-09-28 11:18:15

Re: A suggestion for the forum

I don't want to turn this into a theological discussion, but whatever.

Jesus Christ taught that the highest commandment was to love others as you love yourself.  Love goes before all things.  If you truly understand Jesus Christ and his teachings, then you can't justify your hatred of or discrimination against gays by Him.

Moreover, there are very few places in the Bible that actually decry or proscribe homosexuality at all.  There was the thing with Sodom and Gomorrah, but the people of those cities were doing plenty of other "sinful" things in addition to homosexuality, if indeed homosexuality would be a sin in the eyes of Christ or God.  As far as I can discern, a sin is something that ultimately causes pain for either oneself or for others, but I can't see that homosexuality causes any suffering, save for the fact that sanctimonious "christians", who mistakenly and naively suppose that they represent Christ just because they pray to Him, set out to cause homosexuals suffering - whether by directly attacking them or by preaching that they are evil and going to hell for their evil ways.  In fact, heterosexual premarital sex creates more suffering than homosexual sex.  Heterosexual sex carries with it the risk of creating children who will be born into wretched and miserable circumstances.  Homosexual sex carries no such risk.

God is omniscient and omnipotent.  I don't believe that he leaves anything to chance.  With intent he arranges and engenders everything that exists in this world;  do you suppose that it is an accident that some people are gay?  He has obviously made gay people for a reason (perhaps to test people like you to see if you will tolerate them and treat them with respect?)  If homosexuality were truly a sin, because God has created each individual, homosexuality would be God's sin, wouldn't it?  For, no homosexual is responsible for his being gay;  noone ever decided that he would be gay;  noone ever thought it an expedient or prudent thing to be gay or to make himself gay.  God makes people gay.  The idea that God would persecute and send to hell a gay person on the basis that he is gay alone is tantamount, in my mind, to the idea that God should do so to other people with disabilities - such as people who are mentally retarded, or born with without limbs, and people with other congenital birth defects.  I have faith that God is not such a vile monster.  God has infinite prescience and widsom.  He can surely see that it is not necessary to send people to hell for an eternity because of trifling mistakes that anyone is liable to make or which he has caused people to make.  I don't believe that he would create all of reality with suffering, hatred, misery, or wrath in mind.  He is a good being incapable of vegeance, wrath, anger, hatred, or any other negative thing.

Whats more, no physical institution or organization has any right to tell you how to know God.  God is beyond the physical, beyond this world which we know.  Why then would you go to a social institution that has itself mired in financial transactions and the like to know Him?  Christ himself said that one should come to Him as a child to know him.  He didn't say that a person was to go to a gathering of pretentious and hypocritical people in a gaudy building every Sunday to know Him.  If you want a relationship with Christ, just pray to him.  You don't need to go to church.

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#39 2005-09-28 11:22:54

taekk
Administrator

Re: A suggestion for the forum

I, too, will be sorry to see you go IkimashoZ. Especially since this issue has nothing to do with Japanese. I will leave this thread open for a little longer. Hopefully to allow some kind of resolution, then I will close the thread.

IkimashoZ wrote:

My first major gripe is with the board's administration.  That means you taekk.  You've obviously followed this thread.  You've obviously seen the hateful, cruel and obviously homophobic comments in this thread and the general hatred expressed towards me by the childish, homophobic asshole that is emperor.

Please provide examples of such comments and I will deal with it as necessary.  Obviously, I will not tolerate hateful and racial comments on this message board. So far, the only one I can find is the f-word in your post. While I did find the term gay人 offensive, emperor clearly stated that his intention was to not offend anybody. By the way emperor, despite your intentions, it obviously offended somebody, maybe it would be best if you apologized.

Actually, I have hardly had enough time to read most of the increasing number of posts lately due to my 13 hour work days. But having read over most of the comments now, I've come to the conclusion that everybody is entitled to their opinion (as long as they are not harming anybody).  If you want my opinion, gay people are no different from other people including Japanese people. I think it's unfair to make generalizations about any group of people.

However, although I am the administrator of this message board, I am not a babysitter, nor do I want to tell people how to think.  So, please act like responsible adults and please try to keep comments at least semi-Japanese related.

-Tae Kim

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#40 2005-09-28 11:32:52

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Next time also provide some comment about why you are making a fuss about me. Anyways, now to comment at a bit of what you said.
If nipponman is a believing christ, then please don't try to interfere with him if you are not. I am not trying to interfere either, and I might not be able to give proper reasons but I shall give things to think about here.
I cannot help but thinking that you are the one who is intollerant. You call them 'pretentious and hypocritical' and say that god created homosexual persons on purpose. I am sorry but...this is just to intollerant. God, in one definition does not control the human being. If people believe in such a god, why not let them be? And to the katholics the pope is the represents jesus christ [correct me if I'm wrong] on earth. The pope is against homosexuality. He has reasons for doing so, words of God himself. Believing in the religion and accepting this is enough of a reason.
edit[this post is edited as while I am writing taekk wrote a post, this part is however is not directly directed at taekk]:
I am not a person who refuses to apologize. As above I have apologized for not understanding a post correctly. If I feel I acted unjust and get feedback on that I do apologize. However in the first case I would like to present the situation from my point of view, and why I saw no need for me to apologize but rather to act as I did.
Let me show the first response that was was complaining about my post.

I would recommend not reminding any group of discriminated people that they're discriminated against, even if you don't hold those views yourself.  And using language like that in any context other than one that depicts just how narrow-minded and hateful that language really is can only be offensive and hurtful to members of said group.

This was just sounding like a joke. He wrote 'poor, idiot Westerner' himself, he couldn't be getting upset about this now, could he? I mean he wrote a direct insult and expected persons to laugh about it. I reminded him of it and suddenly there comes a aggressive-seeming response.

Have you ever stepped outside your comfort zone and talked to someone who sees things differently than you do about some topic that you felt was controversial?  Have you ever wrestled with your own set of beliefs and conceptions your society gave you and asked yourself if they were right or wrong?  If you're on this board, it means you're studying Japanese, and I hope your study will some day lead you to Japan.  However, I think you will find that if you insist on clinging rigidly your own beliefs about right and wrong and are not even willing to say "I may still disagree with you, but thank you for giving me a different way of looking at that," you will find yourself terribly lonely and depressed in Japan.  The Japanese have a completely different cultural perspective than anything in the Western Hemisphere.  It's more psychologically stressful than even running into someone who prefers guys to girls or vice versa.  And you know what, at the end of the day, whoever we are, gay, straight, japanese, american, western, eastern, white, black, hispanic, asian or whatever, we are all people, and we are all sensitive to how other people treat us.

To me this post does not look like he feels insulted. This post seems to be insulting towards me.

It accues me of
-having never discussed something with people who have different views
This is unfounded.
-having never thought about the views of society.
This is not true. I said that I do think they should not be disliked. I said they are not strange. I said that the society says the opposite, and I do not agree with them
-clinging to my believes and being unable to discuss things
This is strange. There was no discussion going on at that very moment. Look back. So this is unfounded.

It also says that
-being a foreigner is stranger than being gay [due to cultural differences]
-All people are the same
Have I EVER said anything opposing it? I said homosexual ones are not strange.

So...I cannot see him feeling insulted. If he felt insulted for a reason he'd get my sincere apology. But this is rather an accumulation of accusations about which I should feel insulted. I didn't take insult in it however. And merely stated the facts once again. Use page 1 as a reference.
Anyways, in case I was too dull to see that somebody was 'obviously' hurt then I here is my apology:I'm truly sorry.
But in that case, I shall also state that a certain was also too dull to notice that his behavior was insulting and rather provoking.

Last edited by emperor (2005-09-28 12:19:57)

#41 2005-09-28 11:42:07

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Firstly, there is a difference between being intollerant and objectively labelling a person's nature or demeanor.

Secondly, why would one turn to the Pope to learn about Christ?  The Pope is at best an intermediary.  Why not go to the source - to Christ himself?

Thirdly, God does not control ones actions per se, but he has certainly created each individual, and, thus, if homosexuality is ineluctable and has a genetic basis, God is responsible for it.

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#42 2005-09-28 12:05:16

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

ReceptviCanatvr wrote:

Secondly, why would one turn to the Pope to learn about Christ?  The Pope is at best an intermediary.  Why not go to the source - to Christ himself?

Asking for reasons is well. But the reason is as I said. It's part of the religion. You cannot just question a part of a religion without questioning the religion itself. Saying 'Well it would be better if it was like this' when talking about laws of a religion is just...nonsense.
As far as I know [correct me if I am wrong] there are two things you also failed to consider:
-God does not create every human. He created the first two humans but that is all that he created.
-God said that mankind is to reproduce. This says that
a) He does not create every human
b) The direct word of god is that people are to be heterosexual.

So no matter what arguments you give, you cannot try to force a catholic to judge homosexuality as good because it is against laws given by God.

Last edited by emperor (2005-09-28 12:09:58)

#43 2005-09-28 12:19:48

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Asking for reasons is well. But the reason is as I said. It's part of the religion. You cannot just question a part of a religion without questioning the religion itself. Saying 'Well it would be better if it was like this' when talking about laws of a religion is just...nonsense.

There is nothing, as far as I am concerned, sacrosanct about any religious organization.  I have no problem questioning them.  They are fair game.  Christ did not set up any church.  Churches are man-made.  You who dislikes flimsy, or specious arguments, or a lack thereof, certainly have uttered quite a flimsy and specious one yourself;  you have just arbitrarily decided that faiths are not to be questioned without giving a cogent reason for this predication.

-God does not create every human. He created the first two humans but that is all that he created.

God guides creation.  I do believe in destiny.  I do not believe that everything is entirely random.  But that's just what I believe.

b) The direct word of god is that people are to be heterosexual.

The Bible never explicitly states that a person is to be a heterosexual.

So no matter what arguments you give, you cannot try to force a catholic to judge homosexuality as good because it is against laws given by God.

This is what's in question.  I posit that homosexuality isn't against the laws given by God.  There are many reasons for this belief which perhaps I will get into later...

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2005-09-28 12:22:27)

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#44 2005-09-28 12:23:26

emperor
Guest

Re: A suggestion for the forum

If gods says that mankind should reproduce then this means they are to be heterosexual. Homosexuality causing children is...not quiet possible the natural way. Also there must be enough reason in the bible as the pope seems to be against it. Anyone knowledgable might be able to tell you.
Now ...let me tell you one more thing:
You seem to have your opinion of god. You have your own belief. This belief does not match the cristian way. So you want people to respect your believes, right? Then respect those of others as well, and don't judge that they are wrong. Accept that they exist and let them be, just like they will, hopefully, let you be.
As for the reasons why faiths are not to be questioned. I am actually glad that you doubt things and ask for reasons, it shows that you are thinking about those things honestly and do not want useless ranting around. There is one obvious one: don't judge that others are wrong and you are right without any proof. Proof that god does not exist, prove that he cannot exist or proof that your god is the true god. If you cannot prove this then do not say others are wrong. Do not question it, because you cannot judge it. And saying they are wrong is also a kind of racism, don't you think? So I hope this serves as the reason you saw lacking.

Last edited by emperor (2005-09-28 12:30:30)

#45 2005-09-28 12:34:08

Re: A suggestion for the forum

If gods says that mankind should reproduce then this means they are to be heterosexual.

That would be specious reasoning again.  He doesn't say that absolutely everyone should reproduce and that to not reproduce is a sin.  The sequitur of the fact that God has commanded people to procreate is not that it is a sin to be a homosexual necessarily.  You are jumping to conclusions.
 
And I don't particularly care whether people respect my beliefs or not.  Anyone who wills may call them into question.  That's his prerogative.

Incidentally, you are telling me how to be, and you are essentially telling Nipponman not to listen to me and to listen to his own faith and do whatever it tells him to do - regardless of how deleterious his actions may be to society as a whole.  I don't think that that is fair either.  He is his own person and deserves to not be bound and shackled by the doctrines and dogma of the Catholic faith;  he shouldn't have to do everything some rich fat guy living in the lap of sumptuousness and luxury tells him to do just because the said man purports to be the living hypostasis of Christ - which he probably isn't - and because he has been born into that faith.  Let him decide for himself.  I am giving him guideliness, but I am not saying that he absolutely has to believe in what I believe.

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#46 2005-09-28 12:36:49

nipponman
Member

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Rcantivar, I read through your long post and was gonna respond to that, but this sentence

The Bible never explicitly states that a person is to be a heterosexual.

will be my stomping ground for now.
Firstly,  your correct, the Bible never explicitly states you should be a heterosexual. However, it explicitly states you should never be a homosexual. It clearly says in, I believe, Deuteronomy, that (paraphrasing) a man shall not lie with another man as he lies with a woman...THIS IS AN ABOMINATION. You can say whatever you want, but being a homosexual is an abomination. Plain and simple. You can rationalize what you will, but the Bible is very clear on what you shouldn't do. And that was not done away with with the death of Jesus, just in case you're about to say that. God never intended that people should be gay, it is an abberation of sin. It is wrong. Furthermore, homosexuality carries the same risks as heterosexualilty, maybe more. Aids, stds, etc are all included (maybe even magnified since many homosexuals don't use condoms, it was on the news awhile back.) Plus certain damage to the area affected by sodomy that doesn't come with natural heterosexuality.   

If gods says that mankind should reproduce then this means they are to be heterosexual. Have you seen homosexual ones getting CHILDREN?

Thank you, this is beautiful. A very good pattern of logic.

Finally,

This is what's in question.  I posit that homosexuality isn't against the laws given by God.  There are many reasons for this belief which perhaps I will get into later...

Homosexuality is greater than a sin, it is an abomination. God says so, and you can't change that.
Now, I don't agree with discrimination against homosexuals per se. But, I don't like them because of their actions. Its as simple as that. Why must I be ostracized for my "intolerance" of something that I am diametrically opposed to? You speak of tolerance, but you are intolerant of others intolerance. It seems you (I speak generally here, not just you but ikimashoz as well) take every oppertunity to make sure that homosexuals are defended. I have a news flash, what a homosexual does is not right. It is not natural, and it is not healthy. Prostate cancer is definitely a great risk for homosexuals. Also, did you know that many homosexuals don't live past the age of 50? It was startling to me  to find this out.

***EDIT***
Just for reference, I am not catholic, and don't agree with their religion, it is antithetical to most of the Biblical doctrines, icons,  confession, etc.

***EDIT***
This

If homosexuality were truly a sin, because God has created each individual, homosexuality would be God's sin, wouldn't it?  For, no homosexual is responsible for his being gay;  noone ever decided that he would be gay;  noone ever thought it an expedient or prudent thing to be gay or to make himself gay.  God makes people gay.

is not correct. First of all, how can being gay be anything other than a choice? boys don't even like girls before their testicles descend. There is no sexual attraction between males and females before puberty, so how can you say that someone is "born" gay. People aren't "born" straight either, because of their natural desires the become straight. But being gay is completely a choice. Someone feels a certain way for a while and they think, "Hot dang I'm gay! Time to come out of the closet." No, being gay is a choice completely. But, if God created you gay (which I don't think) it would be to test the Gay person. To see if they will do the unatural, or if they will resist the temptation to be gay. Believe it or not, there are some reformed homosexuals, with families and desires for women. What can you say of that?

Last edited by nipponman (2005-09-28 12:50:31)

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#47 2005-09-28 12:56:55

Re: A suggestion for the forum

Heterosexuals who engage in unprotected sex also contract stds.  Heterosexuals also have anal sex.

The Bible was not a book that existed in full form and then was translated.  The Romans compiled a bunch of books which they thought to be interrelated.  They had no way of knowing that the different books actually spoke of the same God.  The Romans also edited the Bible to a significant extent, leaving out the portions proscribing the consumption of meat - which Christ calls an abomination in the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls and in a version of the Bible saved from corruption by a group of Bhuddist monks.  The English christians also edited the Bible very significantly.  On account of this, you can't know for certain that God actually speaks out against homosexuality, even calling it an abomination.

There are no aberrations in this universe, as far as I'm concerned.  Everything that exists is supposed to exist and has a purpose.  If not, then God has certainly set people up for failure, through his lack of planning and design, and I would say that he is practically rooting for humanity's fall into the maw of hell.

P.S.  It's people like you that lead others away from Christ and God and inspire a hatred of them.  If God is as you say, disliking homosexuals and thinking their actions an abomination, then I should rather my soul be destroyed utterly or go to hell for an eternity rather than live with such a being in the most nightmarish and horrific heaven imaginable. 

Oh, and don't tell me you're a Mormon.  I'm picking up on quite the Mormon flavouring in your posts....  It literally makes me ill.

P.P.S.  That got a little personal and I was attacking ad hominem, which is not suited to any discussion, but particularly not a dialectic.  I'm sorry.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2005-09-28 13:06:29)

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#48 2005-09-28 13:05:07

Re: A suggestion for the forum

nipponman wrote:

is not correct. First of all, how can being gay be anything other than a choice? boys don't even like girls before their testicles descend. There is no sexual attraction between males and females before puberty, so how can you say that someone is "born" gay. People aren't "born" straight either, because of their natural desires the become straight. But being gay is completely a choice. Someone feels a certain way for a while and they think, "Hot dang I'm gay! Time to come out of the closet." No, being gay is a choice completely. But, if God created you gay (which I don't think) it would be to test the Gay person. To see if they will do the unatural, or if they will resist the temptation to be gay. Believe it or not, there are some reformed homosexuals, with families and desires for women. What can you say of that?

Firstly, you shouldn't state any of that as fact, as you are not gay and you don't know what gay people go through.  You can't know for certain that homosexuality isn't genetic.  That seemed to me to be entirely conjectural.  (Although, I wont' be so presumptuous as to say that there hasn't been some conjecture in my posts.)

The liking of a boy for other boys is imprinted in the structure of the mind.  Boys don't know that they're gay before puberty because their bodies are not yet producing enough testosterone to give them any kind of a sex drive, whereby they might know in what sex they are interested.  But you can sometimes tell that a child is gay even before puberty by his womanly mannerisms.

There are no reformed homosexuals.  I have met many men who have tried to do that, who have gone on missions thinking that the mission will make them straight, but they come home as gay as ever, convinced that homosexuality is in the cards for them.  I have also met some who have claimed to have reformed, but who later in life, after having several children, finally admit that they had never actually reformed. (My uncle, Steve, for one.)

Re-read this.  I don't think you read it.  Homosexuality exists within the very structure of the human mind - so says a number of studies.  Why don't you do a search on Google or Yahoo about that, too.

About the gay thing (This is rather disordered and disorganized;  I wrote it very hurriedly):

I would like to state first that I am not gay.  I wouldn't even bring up this point, if my being treated fairly and with equality weren't an issue.

I have met many many gay men in my life, most of whom act just like straight men.  You only think that gay men act strangely because the normal-acting gay men don't disclose the fact that they're gay.  The ones whom you know to be gay are the ones who can't help but advertise their gayness by their effeminate and womanly behaviour.  Most of the gay men whom I know have an interest in sports, videogames, etc... - all the things in which straight men are interested. 

Most of the stereotypical gay men identify themselves by their sexuality, making their whole lives to revolve around the fact that they're gay.  However, there are even more gay men who recognize that one's sexual preference is only a very small facet of a person's make-up, thinking it no more important than that they should like brownies over cake, who live very normal lives which you could hardly distinguish from the life of the average straight man.  Case in point: Person on MySpace whom I know who is gay and quite normal. Read his profile.  If you don't have a MySpace profile yourself, sign-up and look at his pictures;  you'll see just how normal he is.  (Please, do not send him hate mail or anything of the sort!!)

I know from personal experience that a suprising number of 'jock-types', who would seem on the outside to be the straightest of all, is [in agreement with 'number'] actually quite gay.  I have known several gay men who have married and had children and who only started exploring their sexuality in their late 40's, after having spent 20 years married to the woman (One such man is my uncle, Steve.)  The fact is that you can't know exactly who is gay and who isn't, just looking at the person and observing his behaviour.

Statistically, as many as 10% of the general population may be gay, so says a number of studies.  That's ten million gay men in the U.S. alone, and about three hundred million gay men in the world as a whole.  In fact, according to the Kinsey report published in the late 1940's, almost every single person in existence may be homosexual to one extent or another.  Kinsey said that there were very few exclusively heterosexual or exclusively homosexual people and that most people fell somewhere on a continuum of sexual preference.  Wikipedia

To those who would hate gay people on the basis of the teachings of The Bible:  The Bible only speaks about homosexuality a handful of times;  Jesus, however, speaks out against other 'sins' with a far greater frequency.  Homosexuality, in fact, isn't even numbered among the 'sins' which are generally considered to be the worst 'sins' of all (i.e. the Ten Commandments).  If the 'sins' of the Ten Commandments are the worst of them, then we can't even consider homosexuality to be as bad as lying.

There are studies, which are virtually incontrovertible, which show that the minds of men who are predominately homosexual are actually different - if only slightly - in structure to those of straight men, having the best of both the female brain and the male brain (this is a 'bridge-brain'.)  The corpus collosum, for example, in gay men is larger than in straight men, allowing the two hemispheres of the brain to communicate more, and with greater efficiency, endowing the man with an enhanced rational and emotional intelligence.  The greater the extent to which the mind of a man is similar to that of a woman, the more 'gay' the person's behaviour will be and the more he will be attracted to other men.  Because of this, the most intelligent men of history are more liable to be gay or to be "disordered" sexually than other men - either being gay, bisexual, or asexual.   (This isn't a hard and fast rule, however;  the fact of being a 'bridge-brain' doesn't necessarily doom one to being more homosexual than the average "hetero";  it merely increases one's chances of being more homosexual.)
::See, kids?  Being a homo is cool:: 

At any rate, this nation of ours is so obsessed with sexuality.  It is really getting annoying.  A person's entire merit seems to be judged based on in what person he likes to put his dinky.  (Just watch T.V. for five freaking minutes!) There is so much more to a person and there is so much more to life. 

Hatred of homosexuals is the dernier cri in bigotry and prejudice;  when one form of prejudice goes out of fashion (hatred of blacks), those who would hate find another form (hatred of gays).


Homosexuality is perfectly natural with chimpanzees;  when the females aren't receptive, the males turn to one another for sexual gratification, and there may be an evolutionary reason for this.

Women in general are far better at understanding language and communicating their feelings than men.  The more similar your brain is to that of a women (bridge-brain), the better at languages you will be.  Almost all truly intelligent men, all men who are good at languages, all men who have an interest in the sciences are bridge-brains.  An archetypically masculine brain is a stupid brain.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2005-09-28 13:22:38)

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#49 2005-09-28 13:22:40

trippinfall
Member

Re: A suggestion for the forum

I'll try to type this post as quickly as possible because since I've been sitting here trying to figure out what to say, this thread has grown by 3 or 4 posts so I know this post is already out-of-date.

IkimashoZ:
As someone who is "as culpuble as a person who sees any kind of hate crime and turns a blind eye", I guess I have some explaining to do.

First, you admit yourself that the original comment that started this whole mess was just a joke in very poor taste. (Actually, a report of a joke.) By the time I read it there were already posts pointing that out to him so there was no point to me posting.

Let's see, Nipponman then said he'd be uncomfortable talking to gay people (not surprised) and that they have a completely different world-view. (Clearly wrong-headed but immoral is going a bit far.) Then Dally made a very nice speech and Nipponman did a not-so-hot job of defending himself but he was clearly talking about the over-the-top types, I fell exactly the same way about people who like football way too much so what can I say? Anyway there were already responses better written then anything I could have added. Anyway to sum up.

Emperor - I've been know to use off-color jokes too. What did the person say when s/he walked into the bar? Ouch! Not funny. What did the tall man/short man/Trippinfall say... Funnier, it just is. Anyway I can't understand his English half the time so I feel I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Nipponman - I like him, he is fun to argue with. I find it really hard to go from like to dislike quickly so maybe I give him a little more credit then you do. This line:
I can't stand it when people don't tolerate my intolerance. ーnipponman
had to have been a joke. Anyway, he says he's a Christian and as a fellow Christian I know he knows that everyone is equally guilty of sin...ect ect..don't throw stones...Jesus hung out with the outcasts, ect. Nevermind that in the places where the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality it was talking about specific actions of homosexual RAPE and the like and never said a word about consentual activity. That's not a topic for this forum.

If you still think I'm "as culpuble as a person who sees any kind of hate crime and turns a blind eye" then I would understand if you no longer wish to hang out with me when I get to Japan but I hope you do and I hope you stay an active member of this forum.

Trippinfall

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#50 2005-09-28 13:26:13

Re: A suggestion for the forum

What about me?  You didn't describe my role?  Did I do a good job? smile

Anyways, thanks for that, trippinfall.

Anyway, he says he's a Christian and as a fellow Christian I know he knows that everyone is equally guilty of sin...ect ect..don't throw stones...Jesus hung out with the outcasts, ect. Nevermind that in the places where the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality it was talking about specific actions of homosexual RAPE and the like and never said a word about consentual activity. That's not a topic for this forum.

I particularly liked this part ^ 

Nipponman, it is not your place to judge a person's sins and to ostracize him and treat him like garbage.  Jesus indeed hung out with people whom we might call the greatest low-lifes in existence (including a prostitute), but he treated them with respect and loved them and did not judge them.  I kind of stated this before when I said that Christ's highest teaching was love and that love comes before all things.

God wouldn't judge a man evil or wicked for putting his finger in the ear of another man for pleasure - however strange he should think it.  Likewise, I don't really see why he would care that a man should put a certain part of his body into the body of another man - inasmuch as it should be consensual.


[edit]This is entirely retrograde to the current mood of this thread and quite frivolous, but:  Yay!  I just made my 100th post!  I'm a 'Cool Member'. wink

[edit2]If I become progressively more incoherent as the day wears on, you'll have to forgive me;  I got approximately 3 hours of sleep last night.

[edit3]I am a christian, too - in the sense that I believe in Christ and follow his teachings to the best of my abilites;  however, I am not a christian in the traditional sense, being a vegetarian, and believing in things that smack of Hinduism and Buddhism - which you probably think evil because of your indoctrination at the hands of a wretchedly dogmatic organization which, in my opinion, amounts to a company out to appropriate cash.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2005-09-28 15:50:13)

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