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#1 2008-05-22 14:26:04

Suffering passive

I've recently stumbled across something called the "suffering passive" on this webpage
http://kimallen.sheepdogdesign.net/Japanese/verbs2.html

I think I get what it means, but I'm wondering what the difference between this and てちゃう・しまう is?

「僕はビールを飲まれた」と「僕はビールを飲んじゃった」とは何が違うの?


人生は一箱のマッチに似ている。重大に扱うのはばかばかしい。しかし重大に扱わなければ危険である。
Life is like a box of matches. To treat it seriously is just crazy. However, if you don't treat it seriously, then there's a danger.

- 芥川龍之介

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#2 2008-05-22 15:03:03

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Suffering passive

「僕はビールを飲まれた」
I had my beer drunk... oh noes
「僕はビールを飲んじゃった」
I went and (totally) drank my/the beer... whoops

Last edited by Faumdano (2008-05-22 15:27:09)


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#3 2008-05-22 15:36:27

Re: Suffering passive

Faumdano wrote:

「僕はビールを飲まれた」
I had my beer drunk... oh noes
「僕はビールを飲んじゃった」
I went and (totally) drank my/the beer... whoops

So, is it just that the "completeness" of the action is missing in the suffering passive, or am I still missing something?  BTW, I also like the fact that you used the phrase "oh noes."  I had a healthy giggle.


人生は一箱のマッチに似ている。重大に扱うのはばかばかしい。しかし重大に扱わなければ危険である。
Life is like a box of matches. To treat it seriously is just crazy. However, if you don't treat it seriously, then there's a danger.

- 芥川龍之介

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#4 2008-05-22 15:39:52

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Suffering passive

The difference is that in the first one the action was performed by an outside agent, whereas in the second the action was performed by the first person "I" with a slight implication of it not being deliberate.


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#5 2008-05-22 15:44:08

Kyoufu
Member

Re: Suffering passive

In 「僕はビールを飲まれた」 it's you who suffer from somone else doing the action of drinking the beer.

In this example the agentに is left out, which isn't strange considering how Japanese works.

in a textbook the sentance would have probably looked something like this 「私は友達にビールを飲まれた」

In 「僕はビールを飲んじゃった」 you are expressing regret over having drunken all the beer

Last edited by Kyoufu (2008-05-22 18:10:35)

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#6 2008-05-22 15:46:48

taekk
Administrator

Re: Suffering passive

Here's my thought on this whole suffering business.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/200 … g-passive/

-Tae Kim


それは、よくなくなくない?

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#7 2008-05-22 16:19:43

Re: Suffering passive

今100%分かってありがとう。  I think I get were Tae Kim is coming from, I mean, you don't really need a "suffering" category.  Heck, you could claim English has a suffering passive too!

"I bought a cake for the birthday party tomorrow.  When I got home today, the cake had already been eaten."

From context, we know I'm "suffering" due to the event, but's I think more because it's just kind of a nuance of the passive in general in both of the languages.  Good deal.


人生は一箱のマッチに似ている。重大に扱うのはばかばかしい。しかし重大に扱わなければ危険である。
Life is like a box of matches. To treat it seriously is just crazy. However, if you don't treat it seriously, then there's a danger.

- 芥川龍之介

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#8 2008-05-22 16:28:32

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Suffering passive

taekk wrote:

Here's my thought on this whole suffering business.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/200 … g-passive/

-Tae Kim

I've read that particular article of yours before. However, why don't you discuss the difference between:
ケーキを全部食べられた the cake was eaten (で?)
and
私はケーキを全部食べられた I had the cake eaten on me (やれやれ)

[edit]
Though I guess the fact that を was used in the former sort of implies the "suffering" passive already since it would usually be something more like ~が食べられた.

[edit]
An interesting write up on passive in Japanese in general. Just though it might be of interest to some people:

 「太郎が先生にほめられた」や「この寺は、1000年前に建てられた」のように、行為・動作・できごとを受ける人やものを中心にして表現する形式を「受け身」または「受動態」という。受け身文では、動詞の「受け身形」が使われる。受け身形の作り方は、学校文法では、動詞の未然形に助動詞「れる」「られる」を接続させるというふうに説明される。日本語教育では、 (1) 五段動詞では、語幹に受け身の意味を表す接辞[areru]を接続させる。  読む→読まれる(yom-u→ yom-areru) (2) 一段動詞では、語幹に受け身の意味を表す接辞[rareru]を接続させる。  見る→見られる(mi-ru → mi-rareru) (3) 変格活用動詞  カ行変格活用動詞 来る→来られる  サ行変格活用動詞 する→されるのように説明される。受け身文の種類には以下のものがある。 (1) 直接受け身~直接対応する能動文がある受け身文~ 「その生徒は先生にほめられた」という受け身文は「先生はその生徒をほめた」という能動文に対応している。このように直接対応する能動文がある受け身文のことを「直接受け身」という。能動文のどの格を受け身文の主格にするかによって以下の2種類がある。 ① ヲ格の受け身(能動文のヲ格補語が主格補語になる受け身)   その生徒は先生にほめられた。←先生がその生徒をほめた。 ② ニ格の受け身(能動文のニ格補語が主格補語になる受け身。「相手の受け身」ともいう)   彼は婚約指輪を突き返された←彼女は彼に婚約指輪を突き返した。 (2) 間接受け身~直接対応する能動文がない受け身文~ 「彼は、妻に先立たれた」という受け身文には対応する能動文がない。(「妻は、彼を先立った」とは言えない)このように直接対応する能動文がない受け身文のことを「間接受け身」という。間接受け身にも以下の2種類がある。 ① ノ格の受け身(「所有の受け身」ともいう)  (私は誰かに私の)足を踏まれた。←誰かが私の足を踏んだ。  (私は誰かに私の)財布を盗まれた。←誰かが私の財布を盗んだ。   動作、行為を受けた人を主格補語にして、その人の所有するもの(体の一部・持ち物)にその動作、行為が及んだことを表す。受け身文の(私は誰かに私の)の部分は普通、表現されない。 ② 第三者の受け身(迷惑の受け身・被害の受け身)   (私は)一晩中、赤ん坊に泣かれた。←赤ん坊が一晩中泣いた。   この受け身文は「自動詞の間接受け身文」である。   (私は)隣人に塀を作られた。←隣人が塀を作った。   受け身の文で表現されて初めて迷惑を被った人が表されるので「迷惑の受け身」「被害の受け身」ともいわれる。 (3) 非情の受け身 主格補語が非情物(無生物)の直接受け身文で、普通、動作主は表現されない。迷惑や被害の意味も表さない。  2002年のワールドカップは日本と韓国の両国で開催される。 (4) その他 常に受け身の形で表現され、そのものの性質や状態を表す。このような文は厳密には受け身文とは考えないのが普通である。   彼は、体力に恵まれている。

Last edited by Faumdano (2008-05-22 16:43:59)


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#9 2008-05-22 19:03:25

運転者
Member

Re: Suffering passive

There is a much better term than "suffering passive," but I only saw it once and can't remember the site it was on.

More directly than "the cake had already been eaten," however - "I was eaten of my cake." with the construction being as for "I was robbed of my wallet." (at least I think that is the way it goes.) For those more skilled in Japanese than I, the matter was addressed by ms

Last edited by 運転者 (2008-05-22 19:33:35)


ーーーーーーーーーー

「デェ、この微分[color=gray]びぶん[/color]・積分[color=gray]せきぶん[/color]とかゆうのは、足し算[color=gray]たしざん[/color]・引き算[color=gray]ひきざん[/color]とはどう違[color=gray]ちが[/color]うのだ?」 白雪

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#10 2008-05-23 12:14:29

taekk
Administrator

Re: Suffering passive

Faumdano wrote:

I've read that particular article of yours before. However, why don't you discuss the difference between:
ケーキを全部食べられた the cake was eaten (で?)
and
私はケーキを全部食べられた I had the cake eaten on me (やれやれ)

I don't really see a difference here. I just see it as assigning a topic to the sentence or not.
By assigning a topic, you're saying that the passive action is about the topic.
I still think the suffering aspect is embedded into the nature of the action being done unto you.
The topic particle simply describes who/what that action is about.
In other words, it's a matter of semantics and not syntax.

-Tae Kim


それは、よくなくなくない?

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#11 2008-05-23 13:12:21

bubblebath
Member

Re: Suffering passive

taekk wrote:

I don't really see a difference here.

The former is an experiential expression and the latter is an objective description.
The one without a subject sounds that the speaker experiences it now and here.
On the other hand, the sentence with a subject, except comparison, sounds as if the speaker doesn't see himself as a person concerned or as if he is in depersonalization.
In English, the indications of subjects are obligate. Therefore, that sort of difference doesn't become prominent.
However, how about them?
You are walking through a forest and discover a clearing.
a)There is a clearing ahead of me
b)There is a clearing ahead
Which one sounds natural at the instant of the discovery? The expression with me(I) or the one without me(I)?


Please correct my English.

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#12 2008-05-23 15:29:19

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Suffering passive

Taekk: I wasn't thinking straight there... for some reason I was thinking of there difference between something like:
① 財布が盗まれた (my) wallet was stolen.
② 財布を盗まれた (I) had (my) wallet stolen (on me).

① is plain old passive and ② is something a bit different, wouldn't you say? As for what bubblebath said, that sort of difference wasn't my intension tongue

bubblebath:

a)There is a clearing ahead of me
sound like it's 独り言 or that you're relaying information to someone not physically present with you

b)There is a clearing ahead
sounds more general. For instance, say you're walking with some friends in the forest and you spot a clearing: "oh look! there's a clearing ahead". That said, it feels like there's an implied "of us" here.


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#13 2008-05-23 16:48:01

taekk
Administrator

Re: Suffering passive

① 財布が盗まれた
② 財布を盗まれた

Is there a difference? They sound the same to my ears and I would be "suffering" if my wallet was stolen regardless of the particle.
The only difference I can see is you're identifying what was stolen in the first sentence (essentially the role of the が particle) while the second is a more generic statement.
Similar to the difference between: ケーキが食べたい and ケーキを食べたい

But to me, neither seems worse or more "suffering" than the other. And both sound pretty much the same in an everyday practical sense.
Maybe some grammar experts can correct me on this.

-Tae Kim


それは、よくなくなくない?

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#14 2008-05-23 21:57:52

運転者
Member

Re: Suffering passive

① 財布が盗まれた
② 財布を盗まれた

According to what I have read, Taekkどの, there is no difference in empirical meaning. Nonetheless, を makes 財布 the verb's complement, and it raises the emotional index.

In consequence, English requires different verbs for each of the sentences in the example.

My wallet was stolen.
I was robbed of my wallet.

"My wallet was robbed" - the wallet would have suffered the indignity of being robbed, but it would still be in the speaker's possession. - comparison "My house was robbed." More properly "burgled."
"I was stolen of my wallet" - semantically void.
"robbed of ~" the usual implication of physical violence being offered or inflicted is not present.

Last edited by 運転者 (2008-05-23 21:58:35)


ーーーーーーーーーー

「デェ、この微分[color=gray]びぶん[/color]・積分[color=gray]せきぶん[/color]とかゆうのは、足し算[color=gray]たしざん[/color]・引き算[color=gray]ひきざん[/color]とはどう違[color=gray]ちが[/color]うのだ?」 白雪

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