Chinese Kanji and their Japanese counter part ? (Page 1 of 2)

AFAIK (I'm no expert):
1. Some characters differ a bit in different countries
2. There was a reform in China, hence some characters were simplified there (but not in Japan, Taiwan, Hongkong and Korea).
3. Some Kanji were "invented" in Japan, without Chinese counterparts (funny enough, some of these have even a "Chinese" reading)

Go to http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi- … dic.cgi?1B in order to see the differences.

Last edited by Landei (2005-11-08 04:00:03)

Thanks for the explanation Landei

I've just activated the Chinese writing in my pc.. so let me do an experiment to test it out.

着 this is typed as 'zhuo' in Chinese, however, it differs a bit from the list of words shown in the selection list. So in this case, seems like the kanji word for zhuo in Chinese is slightly different when it's typed in the pc.

the word zhuo when shown in wwwjdic is more accurate, since you can see the two lines inside 口 at the bottom of 着 , but still according to the printed dictionary, the / ( curved slash ) next to the 口 and the | in the top part is supposed to be a single curved slash in a single stroke that starts in the middle of the two ' ', instead of being broken into two strokes as shown in wwwjdic.

Since I'm practicing writing the kanji, I'm just confused about which version of the kanji to follow.
More importantly, of the distortion the kanji goes through as it is shown in the pc

For example you can see that the word 寝 has been 'transformed' by quite a bit as shown here.

You can try copying it into the Kanji display in wwwjdic, which shows a more detailed version of the word, which I compared with the word 'qin' in chinese which uses the same kanji as shown in wwwjdic and has the same meaning, sleep.

Is there a way that I can get the browser to show the 'detailed' version of the kanji so I can avoid double checking each kanji with wwwjdic and my chinese dictionary that I want to practice writing/memorizing ?

And in cases of 'slight' differences between the version of kanji in wwwjdic and the one in my chinese dictionary ( the chinese kanji has the same meaning as the japanese kanji ) refer to the 着る case above, which version of the kanji should I follow ?

Thanks, I hope it's not too confusing

You can roughly see the word 'dressed' in my dictionary next to the kanji, which in turn has the same meaning as 着る ( to wear )

If they're the same kanji, which version of it should i follow when i'm practicing writing ? The one in my dictionary or the one in wwwjdic ?

Comparing both kanji, you can make out that they're technically the same, but i'm just being picky to the last detail

Hi Dally, thanks for the explanation,

I'm chinese, and I've been thought that the vertical line and the curved slash are a single stroke.
The chinese dictionary also treats it as a single stroke, for 11 in total.

Which is the reason that started all of this in the first place

A trip to the following site
http://zhongwen.com/d/181/x219.htm

shows the word zhuo written with single stroke.

Well, if the word in wwwjdic is written correctly in japanese, then I'll just take it as the japanese version of the kanji has 12 strokes instead of 11 for the chinese one.

I'm just worried about the font and size messing up the kanji as what that has happened here. If the one in wwwjdic is correct, then I'll follow that.

Thanks again !

That's interesting, because I asked a friend's dad, who was born in China, and lived there for 20 or so years, and he said it was 12 strokes. =/ Which matched the Japanese, as I expected it would.

This is actually the first time I've come across a stroke count difference between countries on otherwise identical characters.

So I was curious and played with some fonts.

The font on the left is MS Mincho, and the one on the left is SimSun.

I'm pretty sure, since they are both originally CHINESE fonts, that the latter is just a cursive equivalent.

Last edited by Dally (2005-11-08 08:05:21)

Hi Dally !
Thanks for going into great lengths to clear things up !

I'll take your word on it.

I guess this is just one of them weird things that happens when chinese/mandarin is spoken in lots of different countries.

I'm a Malaysian chinese. So that might be the reason why the dictionaries here prints it as 11 strokes.
It does not only use the more curvasive font style, but in the 'index' that we use to look for words, it's listed as 11 strokes too. The word zhuo can be found under the ' ' radical below the 9 strokes section, which adds up to 11.

Interesting to know about the 12 strokes ! Kinda makes me wonder how many other chinese words we have here that's different from mainland and the rest of the world

Thanks again Dally !

Last edited by valeron (2005-11-09 12:19:25)

Just wondering – MS Mincho's actually a Japanese font, isn't it? Usually paired with MS Gothic on Windows. Or am I missing a more subtle point here? MS Hei and MS Song (and MingLiU), on the other hand, would be the Chinese fonts that (used to?) ship with Windows, together with SimSun, wouldn't they?

um its probably been explained a few times, but:

kokuji: kanji made in japan

also some kanji have simplified different from there original chinese counter parts

gokkun(or something like that): 

kanji with different meanings than their original chinese counter parts 

(which adds up to quite a bit of kanji, which is why i would sya it is safe to say, kanji are culturally japanese, and not as much chinese anymore)

No compounds on those cards that use the 音読み？ I guess you've only so much space. What are the little super-script numbers for anyway?

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-06-15 03:34:27)

Hi Faumdano,

Card 228, which is in the JLPT Level 3 set, doesn't include any on-yomi words for this kanji, because they aren't as common and useful at this level. The set certainly includes on-yomi compounds for this kanji on other cards.

Here are a few instances of other cards where this kanji makes an appearance:

Kanji    WRP_CardID    ExampleKanji    ExampleYomi
着    5        上着               うわぎ                                         
着    6        下着               したぎ                                         
着    32        古着               ふるぎ                                         
着    68        水着               みずぎ                                         
着    101        駅に着く         えきにつく                                   
着    228        会社に着く      かいしゃにつく                             
着    228        服を着る         ふくをきる                                   
着    228        着く               つく                                           
着    228        着る               きる                                           
着    228        着物               きもの                                         
着    228        落ち着く         おちつく                                     
着    356        到着する         とうちゃくする                             
着    497        席に着く         せきにつく                                   
着    545        愛着がある      あいちゃくがある                         
着    611        着替える         きがえる                                     
着    644        横着な            おうちゃくな                               
着    840        肌着               はだぎ                                         
着    987        着陸する         ちゃくりくする

The superscript numbers indicate the JLPT level in which the vocabulary is likely to first appear on the test. As you know, the JLPT progresses in difficulty from Level 4 (easiest) to Level 1. Levels are cumulative, so if you plan to take the JLPT Level 3 test, you should study both the Level 3 and 4 vocabulary. Likewise if you are preparing for the Level 2 test, you should attempt to learn all the Level 3 and 4 material in addition to the Level 2 content.

In general, the vocabulary marked as with a superscript is taken directly from the official JLPT official test contents specification. However, in the cases where the official book only lists a generative pattern, such as ‘~語’, ‘~屋’, or ‘～月’, we’ve elected to show concrete examples—such as ’英語’, ‘パン屋’, and ‘五月’ instead of the abstract pattern.

When usage examples are shown with a superscript numeral, such as ‘服を着る’ on card 228, only the component which shares the main kanji (着る) is the official part, not the entire phrase.

Last edited by whiterabbitpress.com (2007-06-16 00:31:11)

They are organized around the JLPT, but I believe they are just as valuable (if not more so) than organizing cards around, say, the order in which Japanese children learn kanji.

The rules which govern our vocabulary selections are complex and using official JLPT vocabulary is just part of our criteria. We also attempt to show a variety of readings, to show a variety of word forms, and to always use common, everyday words whenever possible.

Sorry, no cursive cards! Interesting idea though, but there are lots of variations. Might be more suitable concept for a book than cards...

Last edited by whiterabbitpress.com (2007-06-16 00:51:10)