• furrykef
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Topic: は and word order

Before I go shooting my mouth off about this, I have to emphasize that I'm still a beginner and I could be, for all I know, completely wrong. But hey, that's what discussion is for. smile

In this section I think you simplified sentence order a bit too much.

In particular, it claims that anything before the verb can come in any order, which implies that this can be done with topics marked by は (since it doesn't say you can't). In fact, the example sentences do rearrange "私は" in this way.

However, I think Standard Japanese does require the topic to come first in the sentence (please correct me if I'm wrong). It only makes sense after all: you can't start talking about a topic before you actually introduce the topic. (I know that conversational Japanese does sometimes say things like 何だ、それは？, but I'm talking about "grammatical" Japanese.) Saying something like 公園で私はお弁当を食べた。 strikes me as saying something like, "At the park -- oh, wait, we're talking about me here -- I ate a boxed lunch." It's not something you'd ever say unless your thinking was a bit muddled and you're trying to patch it up mid-sentence.

There's also the point that just because you can arbitrarily rearrange stuff doesn't mean you should, and there's definitely a conventional word order (高橋さんがお酒を飲んだ is far more common than お酒を高橋さんが飲んだ). So the guide is correct in saying that you will probably be understood even if your word order is arbitrary, but if you want to speak natural Japanese, you have to do more than that, whereas the guide gives the impression that you don't.

- Kef

Quote Post 1

  • From: 大阪市住吉区帝塚山中
  • Registered: 2005-05-22
  • Posts: 5,800

Re: は and word order

First は doesn't always specify a conversation level topic; it can replace を・が for a feeling of contrast.

（彼は）ビールを飲まなかった→（彼は）ビールは飲まなかった
（彼は）ラーメンが好き→（彼は）ラーメンは好き

And word order is indeed very flexible, with the caveat that things that come later in the sentence are usually seen as more important. Conventional word order is indeed more or less (Topic) (Subject) (Object) Verb though. Shuffling things around a bit has nothing to do with grammatical "correctness", nor does it have anything to do with conversational vs. literary Japanese.

蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

Quote Post 2

  • furrykef
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Re: は and word order

First は doesn't always specify a conversation level topic; it can replace を・が for a feeling of contrast.

Yes, but I'm not sure that's relevant here. In the sentence お弁当を私は公園で食べた there is no apparent contrast going on, other than the contrast inherent in changing the conversation-level topic. (Of course, we don't have any context to go on here, but the guide is basically implying that the meaning of 私は doesn't have anything to do with its order in the sentence anyway.)

If indeed it's a conversation-level topic change, it still seems rather illogical to change the topic in the middle of a sentence that way. Would お弁当を私は公園で食べた be considered a perfectly good (if unconventionally-ordered) sentence or would a native speaker think it sounds a bit odd?

- Kef

Last edited by furrykef (2009-08-17 08:27:39)

Quote Post 3

  • furrykef
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Re: は and word order

OK, having examined some Japanese sentences more closely, I'm convinced now that は doesn't necessarily have to be the first part of the sentence. But I'm not convinced that where it comes in the sentence is relatively unimportant. I'm especially not convinced that お弁当を私は公園で食べた really makes sense except maybe in specific cases. (I'm sure it "makes sense" in the sense that it would be understood, but it strikes me as illogical ordering.)

(Just to be clear, by "I'm not convinced" I only mean exactly that. I'm fully aware that I could be completely wrong.)

- Kef

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  • Registered: 2009-12-16
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Re: は and word order

i always thought though thatは has to be first part of the sentence

Quote Post 5

  • Hinoeuma
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Re: は and word order

Well, in my DoBJG, the sentence structure diagram has topic (noun or noun phrase) in sentence initial position, no alternatives, and everything else after that.

君が笑う度に記念日
"Every time you laugh it's a day to treasure"

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  • Dheara
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  • From: 東京
  • Registered: 2009-10-21
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Re: は and word order

は again...
Well, according to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, the first は is topic, and the others (if there are others in a sentence) are contrastive... or just used to emphasize something. Anyway, whenever I translate something, I look for は first, and I usually start translating from there.

Quote Post 7

  • Hinoeuma
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Re: は and word order

Dheara wrote:

は again...
Well, according to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, the first は is topic, and the others (if there are others in a sentence) are contrastive... or just used to emphasize something. Anyway, whenever I translate something, I look for は first, and I usually start translating from there.

Yaay, another DoBJG fan! That book has been a huge help for me- I've literally transcribed the whole thing and am on my second revision of my transcribed documents. Each time I review, I find myself understanding the core grammatical elements more and more completely.

君が笑う度に記念日
"Every time you laugh it's a day to treasure"

Quote Post 8