Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

THIS FORUM IS NOW CLOSED TO NEW REGISTRATIONS BUT LEFT FOR PROSPERITY!

You are not logged in.

#1 2006-03-28 06:14:12

ami
Member

What does this と mean?

Aside from the conditional と、the particle と、and the とする、と思う, etc., can anyone please enlighten me if there are any other uses for the と?

I've encountered some sentences where I couldn't figure out what the TO meant, such as
彼はぎくりと身体を強ばらせた。

I was thinking that maybe "gikuri to" meant, "in surprise". I know that there's "gikuri to shite" though, so did they just drop "shite"? Or perhaps "gikuri to saseru" and just dropped the saseru?

Also in エレベーターをう動かそうと、..(rest of the sentence), what does TO mean there? Is it really 動かそうとする, but they just dropped the suru? 

Thanks in advance for any kind of help. big_smile

Offline

#2 2006-03-29 00:45:39

Yokohama
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

I think these とs are just used to add the detail information.

彼は、身体を強ばらせた。 How did he?  He did like 「ぎくり」と. ぎくり might be a sound describing the state of being hard.
彼は、した。 What did he?  He did that 「エレベーターを動かそう」と.

Edit: a typo.

Last edited by Yokohama (2006-03-29 22:28:10)

Offline

#3 2006-03-29 14:53:32

Faceless
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

ぎくりと

I've come across と's like this before, it changes the word before it into an adjective.


This mask is who I am,
this faceless form of a man.

Offline

#4 2006-03-30 02:04:18

ami
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

Faceless wrote:

ぎくりと

I've come across と's like this before, it changes the word before it into an adjective.

Oh, thanks! By the way, Faceless, I was wondering though why I haven't read anything that says something about と being used to make something an adjective. Are there any rules for it? Thanks. smile

Last edited by ami (2006-03-30 02:10:08)

Offline

#5 2006-03-30 02:09:40

ami
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

Yokohama wrote:

I think these とs are just used to add the detail information.

彼は、身体を強ばらせた。 How did he?  He did like 「ぎくり」と. ぎくり might be a sound describing the state of being hard.
彼は、した。 What did he?  He did that 「エレベーターを動かそう」と.

Edit: a typo.

Thanks for the reply! smile That certainly cleared up my mind a bit. However, is there any rules for using と when it's used to add the detail information? (I couldn't seem to read about it anywhere, I'm sorry. T_T) By the way, the whole sentence for the 動かそうと is

なんとかエレベーターを動かそうと電気抵抗を調べに行って戻ると
誰かがエレベーターのところにいるじゃない。

Thanks in advance!

Offline

#6 2006-03-30 06:23:07

mike f.
Guest

Re: What does this と mean?

Yokohama wrote:

彼は、身体を強ばらせた。 How did he?  He did like 「ぎくり」と. ぎくり might be a sound describing the state of being hard.

I think Yokohama-sans second sentence is the key here. The と-usage you are searching an explanation for is related to onomatopoetic (sound or state symbolism) words (擬音語・擬態語、ぎおんご・ぎたいご).

There are a lot of O. (my abbreviation for onomatopoetic words) who can be used 'as-is', e.g.

ぶらぶら歩く stroll
ぺらぺら話す speak fluently

Since they comment on the manner of doing something, their "natural" grammatical form is that of an adverb (not adjective!). A smaller part of the O. are nouns, though. For O. nouns it is obligatory to add either して、と、だ to use it.

(×) びっくりと驚いた
(○) びっくりして目を開けた。 in surprise, he opened his eyes.

For adverbial O.s it's your choice.

ごろごろ転がる/ごろごろと転がる roll, tumble

Still other O. have the と already included like ちゃんと、ほっと、しんと、ぱっと etc.
Since the behavior of O. is rather erratic and cannot be inferred, the exact usage should be learned with each word.

As Yokohama-san noted, と is sort of a quotation in O. use as well. It "quotes" the sound a certain action allegedly makes. In my opinion the +と-usage adds a little emphasis to adverb:

よたよた歩いた she toddled
よたよたと歩いた she walked SHAKILY

But I could be wrong with that (Yokohama-san as a 母語話者 should know).


Your second example is not related to O. It comes from the structure V+ようとする try to do something/be just on the brink of doing something.

食べようとする try to eat, just start to eat
エレベータを動かそうと(して) trying to get the elevator to operate

The usage of the second と in the sentence is that of "natural consequence" described here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/conditional.html#part2

"When I go back to check the resistance to get that elevator to operate, somebody'll surely be at the elevator, right?"

#7 2006-03-30 21:29:40

Yokohama
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

mike f. wrote:

As Yokohama-san noted, と is sort of a quotation in O. use as well. It "quotes" the sound a certain action allegedly makes. In my opinion the +と-usage adds a little emphasis to adverb:

よたよた歩いた she toddled
よたよたと歩いた she walked SHAKILY

But I could be wrong with that (Yokohama-san as a 母語話者 should know).

Thank you for clearing my poor explanation up in the Japanese grammar.

Yes, I have a feeling to add the emphasis of that information when I use the 「何々(なになに)」と phrase.

(×) びっくりと驚いた
(○) びっくりして目を開けた。 in surprise, he opened his eyes.

As for びっくりと驚いた, it is not bad Japanese, I think. It may be translated as 'I'm surprised with surprising.'
And also you can say びっくりと目を開けた which is not the same meaning as びくり(と)して目を開けた(I was surprised and I opend my eyes.)

なんとかエレベーターを動かそうと電気抵抗を調べに行って戻ると
誰かがエレベーターのところにいるじゃない。

For me, I feel that these とs are the same role as the と in the よたよたと歩いた, びっくりと目を開けた, びっくりと驚いた and so on.
歩いた。 How?(どのように?)→ よたよたと
目を開けた。 どのように?→ びっくりと
驚いた。 どのように?→ びっくりと
誰かがエレベーターのところにいるじゃない。 どうしたら?→ 行って戻ると。 どのように? エレベーターを動かそうと

I hope that helps.

Offline

#8 2006-03-31 07:00:26

mike f.
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

Yokohama wrote:

As for びっくりと驚いた, it is not bad Japanese, I think. It may be translated as 'I'm surprised with surprising.'
And also you can say びっくりと目を開けた which is not the same meaning as びくり(と)して目を開けた(I was surprised and I opend my eyes.)

Interesting... So perhaps my example was badly choosen? Or would you subscribe to the statement that every O. can be used with と? E.g.

めちゃくちゃと大酒を飲む。
へとへとと疲れている。
太陽がぽかぽかと照ってる。
がっかりと諦めた。
おろおろと言い出して、いい違いをしてしまう。
くよくよと落ち込む。

Do any of these sentences sound wrong to you (execept if it's just that my combination of O. and verbs is weird)? Because I learnt none of these O. can be used with と. Would be nice to know if that is outdated information big_smile

Last edited by mike f. (2006-03-31 07:06:43)


生死去来、棚頭傀儡、一線断時、落落磊磊 (世阿弥) | [url=http://netwarp.ddo.jp/text/oshii/film/innocence/rairai.html]解釈[/url]

Offline

#9 2006-03-31 17:44:26

Yokohama
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

would you subscribe to the statement that every O. can be used with と?

Yes, if the Os with と is used with the proper verbs because the O + と(which is used to modify the verb) is the same role as adverb, I think.
(To be honest, I really don't know the Japanese grammar since I mastered Japanese before learning any grammar terms, though.)

Let's check your examples out.

めちゃくちゃと大酒を飲む。:understandable

but めちゃくちゃ大酒を飲む。or 「がぶがぶ」と大酒を飲む。is much natural Japanese because there is already good adverb as 「めちゃくちゃに」 or 「がぶがぶ」 is the typical O for 大酒を飲む, I think.

へとへとと疲れている。: undestandable but 「へとへと」 is much better.

太陽がぽかぽかと照ってる。:good

がっかりと諦めた。:good

おろおろと言い出して、いい違いをしてしまう。:bad 

because 「おろおろ」 and 「言い出す」 do not much in this situation for some reason(maybe because 「おろおろとする」 is commonly used.) So it should be 「おろおろ」として、...or you can make any O you want relating 言い出す like 「ぐにゅぐにゅ」/「いらいら」/「ちょっちょっ」と言い出し、...

くよくよと落ち込む。: good

Offline

#10 2006-03-31 20:11:55

mike f.
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

Thanks for the input :-)


生死去来、棚頭傀儡、一線断時、落落磊磊 (世阿弥) | [url=http://netwarp.ddo.jp/text/oshii/film/innocence/rairai.html]解釈[/url]

Offline

#11 2006-03-31 21:45:58

ami
Member

Re: What does this と mean?

Thank you so much for all your help! I think I somehow understand it now. ^_^ Thank you! *bow*

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB 1.5.3