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#126 2007-06-15 19:16:35

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

Aaargh! Your voice is repeating in my head!

That made me literally lol.

Do you happen to know an example that contrasts か゜ (鼻濁音) with a voiced velar fricative? The か゜ version is pretty easy as an English speaker; almost as easy as the English "ga", that is the hard "g" sound. Does the voiced velar fricative exist in casual English speech?

Thank you.

[edit] Also, what sort of impression does a speaker who uses か゜ (鼻濁音) give compared to the other versions?

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-06-15 19:19:46)


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#127 2007-06-15 19:23:44

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … cative.ogg

This is the sound? It sounds pretty weird big_smile Doesn't exist in English at all.


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#128 2007-06-15 19:44:32

bubblebath
Member

Re: ん・ン

Faumdano wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … cative.ogg

This is the sound? It sounds pretty weird big_smile Doesn't exist in English at all.

We would not pronounce it that strongly. smile
When I hear 鼻濁音, I have a expression that the speaker tries to speak *properly*.
IMHO I don't like 鼻濁音 because of its blur. It's like that "Make it clear!".


Please correct my English.

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#129 2007-06-15 20:13:00

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

What about something closer to the sound of the English hard "g"? That is, is it acceptable? If so, how does the impression it gives differ from the softer, more nasal が?


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#130 2007-06-15 20:48:54

bubblebath
Member

Re: ん・ン

Faumdano wrote:

What about something closer to the sound of the English hard "g"? That is, is it acceptable? If so, how does the impression it gives differ from the softer, more nasal が?

I'm not certain, (because I haven't taken a comparative hearing test) but I think that English G (enough explode) is acceptable.
a Voiced velar plosive and a Voiced velar fricative would be the allophon for native speakers of Japanese.


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#131 2007-06-15 20:51:58

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

Thank you. It looks like I'm going to have to listen carefully for examples of the voiced velar fricative in Japanese. The version given at Wikipedia I find very difficult to reproduce. Very.


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#132 2007-06-16 01:45:42

scout
Member

Re: ん・ン

bubblebath wrote:

Your accent→ standard accent
     つらら(LHL)→つらら(LHH)
     つばさ(LHL)→つばさ(LHH)
     つみれ(LHL) →つみれ(LHH)
     つの(HL)→つの(LH)

*L:Low H:High

Here's my second crack at this. 

In addition to fixing the above, I'm intending to say:
つき(LH) つち(LH) つる(HL)

bubblebath's take 2

I'm pretty sure I'm close to LHH (vs gradually rising over the word) for the 3 mora words, though I wonder how correct this is, and if it's less natural sounding than something more like LMH.

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#133 2007-06-16 01:52:35

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

Yours already sounds like you're doing the whole gradual rise across the word anyway. It sounds just fine to me if you're going for the "0" accent on all words but the last. Your tone on all but the last sounds more or less exactly the same as the way I said them. That is, a slight rise across the word.

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-06-16 01:53:04)


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#134 2007-06-16 01:57:11

scout
Member

Re: ん・ン

Yeah, I thought we sounded pretty similar.  (Should be a good thing since you got 100点 smile  This recording (done with my laptop's internal mic) strikes me as being a lot clearer than the ones I did earlier with the desktop's external stand-up mic.  Weird.

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#135 2007-06-16 02:04:03

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

By any chance can you manage to reproduce that bizarre voiced velar fricative? It seems so damn alien to me yikes I need to find a whole bunch of Japanese audio where a speaker uses it...


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#136 2007-06-16 02:29:22

scout
Member

Re: ん・ン

I've yet to get myself to accurately reproduce the sound the guy makes in that clip.  It almost reminds me of the throaty ch sound in Hebrew, but with the throat-clearing vibration at a minimum.

I also listened to myself saying そのはしが, and even though mentally I'm not trying to make a hard g sound, it still seems to come out that way, at least to my ears.

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#137 2007-06-16 02:46:52

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

I had a hard time NOT saying the nasal が. Must be because I associate it so strongly with Japanese.


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#138 2007-06-16 03:14:29

taniwha
Member

Re: ん・ン

Considering I've spent 20 years trying to figure out how to say the likes of "Ngaio Bay" (I think that's the right spelling, place in New Zealand), I'm not giving up on it not that I finally can tongue.

Amusingly, I think I'm losing my hard English "g".


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#139 2007-06-16 03:24:31

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: ん・ン

Sounds to me like you did the 端 version, scout.


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#140 2007-06-16 04:01:06

JKeyz
Member

Re: ん・ン

This time I got a converter to convert it. Yeah, I didn't even realize the large file sizes before.....


Here is my (most likely sad) attempt at bubblebath's list.
bubblebath's list

The first word is in a general lower pitch than the others, just my voice doing weird things.....

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#141 2007-06-16 04:41:08

Gestalt
Member

Re: ん・ン

JKeyz wrote:

This time I got a converter to convert it. Yeah, I didn't even realize the large file sizes before.....


Here is my (most likely sad) attempt at bubblebath's list.
bubblebath's list

The first word is in a general lower pitch than the others, just my voice doing weird things.....

My only comment would be that you need to work on your つ a little, it still sounds like す to my ears

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#142 2007-06-16 04:47:05

我流チン
Member

Re: ん・ン

Amusingly, I think I'm losing my hard English "g".

Chortle. When I've been practicing Japanese for long periods, people keep asking me  a/ if I am a Kiwi or b/ where I got that unidentifiable accent.

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-06-16 04:54:55)


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#143 2007-06-16 04:53:46

bubblebath
Member

Re: ん・ン

Scout: bubblebath's take 2 パーペキ。 And Scout's G sounds natural for me.

JKeyz: bubblebath's list つらら(LHL)→(LHH)
                   つばさ(LHL)→(LHH)
                   つなみ(LHL)→(LHH)
                   つみれ(HLL)→(LHH
                    You→Standard Japanese  


Please correct my English.

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#144 2007-06-16 11:12:19

pazu
Member

Re: ん・ン

Finally. Here is my rendition of bubblebath's assignment.


--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

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#145 2007-06-16 11:36:43

Re: ん・ン

I think the problem is that you are pronouncing all of the が’s at the very same pitch.  The pitch of particles changes depending upon what precedes (and what follows?):

端が LHH
箸が HLL
橋が LHL

I believe you were doing:

LHH
HLH
LHH

It may be that your partial correctness was the reason for Bubblebath's uncertainty as to your correctness.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2007-06-16 11:43:41)

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#146 2007-06-16 12:32:51

bubblebath
Member

Re: ん・ン

ReceptviCanatvr wrote:

I think the problem is that you are pronouncing all of the が’s at the very same pitch.  The pitch of particles changes depending upon what precedes (and what follows?):

端が LHH
箸が HLL
橋が LHL

I believe you were doing:

LHH
HLH
LHH

It may be that your partial correctness was the reason for Bubblebath's uncertainty as to your correctness.

No, he pronounced all pitches correctly, though his speech lacked the smoothness.
Now I confirmed Faumdano's speech and it's enough OK.


Please correct my English.

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#147 2007-06-16 12:54:51

scout
Member

Re: ん・ン

Faumdano wrote:

Sounds to me like you did the 端 version, scout.

Hmm.... and here I was going for 橋.

ReceptviCanatvr wrote:

I think the problem is that you are pronouncing all of the が’s at the very same pitch.  The pitch of particles changes depending upon what precedes (and what follows?):

I believe it's just based on what's before it.  Particles maintain the pitch of the previous mora unless the pitch drop on the preceeding word occurs after the last mora (e.g. 橋2.)

I've also posted some notes from a lecture I saw regarding pitch accent.  Note that while I have a comment in there reads "just before る," I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be "just before the last mora," however I decided to transcribe my notes verbatim.

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#148 2007-06-16 13:07:15

bubblebath
Member

Re: ん・ン

つばさ(LHL)→(LHH) and you didn't pronounce ば correctly. You pronounced it as ぱ-like sound.


Please correct my English.

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#149 2007-06-16 13:30:46

Re: ん・ン

bubblebath wrote:

Now I confirmed Faumdano's speech and it's enough OK.

では, すみませんでした、 Bubblebath, Faumdano


I went looking through some old boxes and found a mic for my last computer.  Yay.  I didn't have to buy a new one.

箸端橋

Edit:  I'll work on the others here soon.

Last edited by ReceptviCanatvr (2007-06-16 13:31:32)

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#150 2007-06-16 13:32:16

Re: ん・ン

scout wrote:

I've also posted some notes from a lecture I saw regarding pitch accent.  Note that while I have a comment in there reads "just before る," I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be "just before the last mora," however I decided to transcribe my notes verbatim.

Oh, thanks, Scout.  Very nice.

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