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#1 2007-08-16 04:15:46

どんぐり
Member

A small complaint

Why is that some guys keep discussing English Grammar in my study cubic, when I post a question about Japanese Grammar?  I cannot care less about English. 

I use English here only for the sole purpose to communicate.  This is a unique forum for Japanese study, there is no such web in my mother tongue.  sad

Help me out, Mr. Tae Kim, I love you.

Last edited by どんぐり (2007-08-16 04:17:33)

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#2 2007-08-16 04:54:47

hasen
Member

Re: A small complaint

It's ok, there are nice Japanese people here that always help out with Japanese language and grammar, I think it's perfectly OK for them to ask question about English (hey, at least they can sort of get paid-back this way)


ハセン

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#3 2007-08-16 05:07:07

どんぐり
Member

Re: A small complaint

It's OK with me, if they are Japanese friends trying to improve their English.  However, it sounds like native speakers playfully showing off and competing their English expertise only for fun. 

Besides, there is forum designed for foreign languages (other than Japanese) at this site.  Please play over there, kids.

Last edited by どんぐり (2007-08-16 05:12:56)

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#4 2007-08-16 06:28:50

Koryo
Member

Re: A small complaint

どんぐり wrote:

. . ., if they are Japanese friends [and other people interested in grammar, and accurate communication and speach] trying to improve their English [and help others].

They and we are.

Internet forums provide a virtual place to build communities and discuss ideas.  They are different than physical fora in that there are essentially no time constraints: it's not as though you are limited to 40 posts per month so that tangents take away from you ability to discuss.

When topics relating to the English language arise in the context of the original thread, as there is no threading system, it is most convenient to discuss in place.  When you go out with friends to talk about art, if a question about math comes up, you simply shift the conversation slightly.  You don't tell your friend to ask someone else! ー unless of course, you know nothing about math, but that's not the case here.

In this forum, we have built a community of people who are interesting in learning and discussing ideas in general.  While it may be difficult to appreciate, this is particularly rare and valuable ー on the Internet and in person.  Communities on the Internet form because of the people involved; it's not a small hamlet that you're born into.  We associate by choice.  While the initial impetus for our association may be the Japanese language and education of it, I welcome flowing discussion in general among us.

There is of course, also the need for some organisation, so I can understand someone being annoyed if there were continual topic postings under "Questions about Japanese" on the influence of tribal practices in sub-Saharan Africa on early-modern French literature ー or even many off-topic postings within a thread which are entirely unrelated to it.  However, such it not the case.

Notwithstanding, I do feel that comments such as those below are not warranted, regardless of who posts them!

various people wrote:

[ color=red][bold]Why is that some guys "upstairs" keep talking about English grammar?  What I want to pick up here is Japanese.  I'll go to English study forum instead if I have question about English.[/bold][ /color]

If someone wants to start a group or forum and chair or moderate it so that the discussions only follows his train of thought, he's welcome to.  It's the Internet after all.

I, for one, hope that such ignorant people will become extinct one day in the near future

And wishing that people die over such trivial matters?!  Well, I suppose that's how wars start in some places . . .

Neither of you gets, it do you?
. . .
I'd like if Faumdano or Tae-Kim could reply to this thread, since some other people don't get it....

If you're discuss something with people, friends or not, belittling those who are trying to help you is generally counter-productive.

I believe everyone finds his or her time here most enjoyably when he or she respects the people who come here first as people ー not as mindless, anonymous avatars.

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-16 06:47:14)


「正しい判断は経験から生まれ、経験は間違った判断から生まれる。」

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#5 2007-08-16 07:32:40

bubblebath
Member

Re: A small complaint

どんぐり wrote:

Why is that some guys keep discussing English Grammar in my study cubic, when I post a question about Japanese Grammar?  I cannot care less about English. 

I use English here only for the sole purpose to communicate.  This is a unique forum for Japanese study, there is no such web in my mother tongue. 

Help me out, Mr. Tae Kim, I love you.

Indeed. Your proposition that people should not discuss English grammar in Questions about Japanese has a point.
I've asked some questions about English grammar there and I might avail myself of their broad-mindedness.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make it straight, どんぐり. I'm so sorry I confused your post.
I won't ask any English questions in Questions about Japanese  from now on.

I've decided to post a thread about spin-off English grammar question in Other Languages as its solution.

hasen wrote:

It's ok, there are nice Japanese people here that always help out with Japanese language and grammar, I think it's perfectly OK for them to ask question about English (hey, at least they can sort of get paid-back this way)

Thanks for your kindness, hasen but my attitude towards his thread is at fault in the case.

<Koryo

Well... He is a bit immature before...

Last edited by bubblebath (2007-08-16 09:45:31)


Please correct my English.

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#6 2007-08-16 08:51:25

pazu
Member

Re: A small complaint

I'm with Koryo. While learning Japanese is the basis for this community, and the reason I joined it in the first place, it's no longer the only reason I keep coming back. I enjoy reading the posts here, even when they don't talk about Japanese. It's not like I'm forced to read them, anyway. If a topic doesn't interest me, I just skip to the next message. Simple like that.

One of the many qualities of this forum is the lack of moderation. As a community, we manage to stay mostly civil and on topic, without derailing too much or turning threads into flame wars, without almost any moderation at all. I can count with my right hand fingers the number of times Taekk actually had to close a thread, and I hope it can stay like this.


--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

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#7 2007-08-16 10:24:54

どんぐり
Member

Re: A small complaint

You see, that's the point why we need to learn Japanese grammar.  It's about organization, grouping, and order.  We cannot make an enjoyable world, if everyone just plays by the instinct.  Order makes things easier and focused.  Don't you think?

To some people internet forum may be a relaxing playground, they don't mind which merry-go-round they hop on.  But to me it is more like a big subway central station leading to various destinations.  When I see a sign spelling "大阪へ", I won't hop on if I'm heading for 東京.  And Please help me arrive at my desitnation.

Last edited by どんぐり (2007-08-16 12:07:25)

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#8 2007-08-16 10:40:44

scout
Member

Re: A small complaint

I agree with Koryo and Pazu.  As many people have mentioned in the past few weeks, the fundamental requirement of anything you do as part of learning Japanese is that it has to be fun.  That includes this forum - while I believe most of us came here for the chance to discuss Japanese, we stay around because it's fun to converse and grow with the rest of the community.

It has also been mentioned more than a few times that learning a new language also tends to make you more conscious of your own language.  I think it makes perfect sense to discuss things inline that come up as part of a conversation.  Since most (I assume) of the native English speakers here don't have specific questions about English grammar, it's not likely that we'd plan to go and ask questions at an English grammar forum.  I believe this forum can (and does) serve well for those questions that arise in the middle of discussing something not specifically about English grammar.

It also feels odd to have English demoted to the role of "the tool I have to use to talk about Japanese" - we have a very mixed community here, and at least a sizable portion of us come from an English speaking background.

Finally, for my own bit of a rant touching on the moderation issue (or lack thereof:)

Note: PLEASE only those who often / almost often read texts entirely in japanese for improving their japanese language skills and knowledge answer these question, concerning you... Thank You...

---> Thanks alot in advance to everyone who replies on these questions properly, honestly and without much offtopic themes

PLEASE don't get much offtopic in this thread, and if you don't know the answer, and don't intend posting any additional questions to people to reply (related to the topic), then please don't spam in here.

Personally, as a group I think we do a pretty good job of moderating ourselves.  I don't think anyone here intends to post incorrect information or hijack threads.  I personally find comments like those above demotivating and often enough to make me not want to post in those threads.  Perhaps I've had blinders on, but I really haven't seen any of this kind of stuff being a problem for the vast majority of threads here.

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#9 2007-08-16 11:03:43

愛の天使
Member

Re: A small complaint

scout: what, you forgot to post my name as well, next to those quotations?
Of course I wrote those.
Why? Well, there are some threads I created, and with some  really important problems I encountered, OR really important questions... HOWEVER, people have quickly (un)conciously, (un)purposely turned at a new, totally unrelated topic(s), and despite the fact I replied to those threads "begging" to get back to main topic, the people kept with distant off-topic themes.
(I am not referring to every thread I created, just some threads)

It's like... I want us to talk about a horror movie we just saw last night, and you immediately change the subject to incomes and salaries, or, I dunno, e.a. drawing and painting, a.k.a. totally-unrelated-stuff...

If I want answer on North-pole questions ONLY, and you want to talk about South-pole, then create a new thread!

And yeah, there should be many forum moderators here, to browse through threads and delete TOTALLY-unrelated, frustrating replies, in order to make an order, so everyone could read Question AND related answers, not a whole lotta chawa-bunga created for no reason...

Just because there are people who are okay with that, it DOESN't mean the people needing related answers only (people who are tired of browsing through a jungle in order to find correct and related answers) should be ignored!
It's simple: If you do know the answer, and want to post, then please post smile
If you don't know the answer, and intend to really go offtopic, then please be considerative and nice, to not post. smile
That would be the best!

EDIT: fixed several typos

Last edited by 愛の天使 (2007-08-16 11:14:34)

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#10 2007-08-16 11:13:31

taekk
Administrator

Re: A small complaint

The Japanese speakers on this forum have been very friendly and helpful in answering questions about Japanese. I think it's only fair that we help them in turn. Language is a give and take process and I do not want overly strict rules. I feel it would kill discussion, mutual learning, and lose a lot of value for this forum.

However, I do appreciate the other side's viewpoint so as a compromise how about I set up a thread strictly for question and answer format? No posts that don't answer the question allowed.

-Tae Kim

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#11 2007-08-16 11:26:29

scout
Member

Re: A small complaint

愛の天使: No, I purposefully left your name off.  I wasn't trying to highlight you, merely trying to show a certain trend in recent posts that I found rather annoying.

Regarding changing topics - if your friend changes the topic, it likely means they either ran out of stuff to talk about on the initial topic, or thought of something more interesting to talk about.  In general, if it's the second category, I think most people will go to the Mumble thread.  However, if it's the first case, the only other choice would be to let the thread die.  And then people wonder why they post questions and don't get an immediate response - I personally think a lot of us don't like making things quite that sterile.  If you keep people interested, they're more likely to keep talking about things you want to hear as well.

For those trying to avoid the jungle of comments, Tae Kim's proposed Q&A style forum sounds perfect.  It might also be useful to have a section of the wiki for things like that, where the responses have been boiled down, so that future readers won't have to go through everything.

edit: typo

Last edited by scout (2007-08-16 11:45:19)

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#12 2007-08-16 11:40:01

我流チン
Member

Re: A small complaint

When a thread is hijacked or derailed: The initial subject is not dealt with properly; those matters which should be side issues being the subject of consideration and discussion.
When a thread is neither hijacked nor derailed: The initial subject is dealt with properly and completely, whether or not side issues are considered and discussed during or after deliberation upon the issues raised by the opening topic.

Learn to make the distinction.

Taekkどの wrote:

The Japanese speakers on this forum have been very friendly and helpful in answering questions about Japanese. I think it's only fair that we help them in turn. Language is a give and take process and I do not want overly strict rules. I feel it would kill discussion, mutual learning, and lose a lot of value for this forum.

Discussion with Japanese on the rare visits made to other sites, when I have mentioned this site, often leads to the complaint that Japanese get no welcome from users in such places. Restricting responses to those of the type demanded in this thread are among the difficulties that engender that perception. Happily, no-one here even dreamed of being so short of good sense (before now.)

Last edited by Garyuchin (2007-08-16 11:55:42)


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#13 2007-08-16 11:41:01

taekk
Administrator

Re: A small complaint

Ok, I'll go set that up now.

-Tae Kim

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#14 2007-08-16 11:50:20

pazu
Member

Re: A small complaint

scout wrote:

I personally find comments like those above demotivating and often enough to make me not want to post in those threads.

And I was thinking I was alone in this matter...


--
手加減せずに私の日本語を直してください

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#15 2007-08-16 12:00:00

我流チン
Member

Re: A small complaint

Agreed with Taekkどの and Scout: An FAQ or similar, with responses to main questions about English and the answers thereto would be really useful - especially if they were to be written up in Japanese.


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#16 2007-08-16 12:03:01

bubblebath
Member

Re: A small complaint

I deleted the thread about spin-off English grammar question because taekkさん constructed the big subway central station for
those who can't stand noise. Cheers, taekkさん. smile

Last edited by bubblebath (2007-08-16 17:43:01)


Please correct my English.

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#17 2007-08-16 12:10:49

scout
Member

Re: A small complaint

While we're in the midst of bit of a re-organization, perhaps it's also the right time to bring up the lack of a designated forum for miscellaneous questions.  I've always taken "Other Japanese-Related Stuff" to be the unofficial place for completely miscellaneous posts (as evidenced by the Mumble thread,) however JKeyz's recent post about programming in the Events and Get-togethers has made me start to think either (a) that's  not the case or (b) it's not well enough publicized as such if it is the right place to go.

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#18 2007-08-16 12:57:25

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: A small complaint

どんぐり wrote:

Why is that some guys keep discussing English Grammar in my study cubic, when I post a question about Japanese Grammar?  I cannot care less about English. 

I use English here only for the sole purpose to communicate.  This is a unique forum for Japanese study, there is no such web in my mother tongue.  sad

Help me out, Mr. Tae Kim, I love you.

First of all, this place is not your anything. You've just recently started posting and as such I don't think you're in any position to be making such selfish demands. If you don't care about the little side discussions that may start in a thread, don't read them. Problem solved. We as a community aren't here to cater to your every whim. We're glad to help, but not if people are going to be needlessly rude. (this last bit isn't aimed solely at you)

Our posts that may get offtopic into English have nothing at all to do with "showing off" and I'm not sure why you'd even begin to think they were. They are partially for the benefit of our non native English speakers trying to get a grip on the language and they are partially just useful in discussing the topic at hand.

We have our system of discussion and it works. Not only does it work, it usually ends up answering more questions than were even asked in the first place. Various degrees of offtopic-ness help foster a sense of community. Without it, the community would die. Everyone would be a faceless, personality devoid Q&A machine.

Please, all our non-native speakers, continue as you were. Don't hesitate to ask questions about English especially if those questions are directly related to the topic at hand.

愛の天使 wrote:

And yeah, there should be many forum moderators here, to browse through threads and delete TOTALLY-unrelated, frustrating replies, in order to make an order, so everyone could read Question AND related answers, not a whole lotta chawa-bunga created for no reason...

Just because there are people who are okay with that, it DOESN't mean the people needing related answers only (people who are tired of browsing through a jungle in order to find correct and related answers) should be ignored!
It's simple: If you do know the answer, and want to post, then please post smile
If you don't know the answer, and intend to really go offtopic, then please be considerative and nice, to not post. smile
That would be the best!

There is no need for moderators for the time being. None. Moreover, there is very little totally unrelated material ever posted in any thread. Anything posted is almost always related to the topic at hand or the thread of discussion. If that bothers you, well, that's too bad. This probably isn't the community for you then. Stick to Tae Kim's newly created Q&A thread if you want a dry, answer only format.

If you're tired of browsing through a "jungle" of replies, that's your problem not ours. No one I've noticed replies to topics with totally unrelated information. That would be grounds for moderation.


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#19 2007-08-16 13:02:03

Kscnoko
Member

Re: A small complaint

Absurd really absurd

I do not get how posting "irrevalent"(or is it really?) materials is much hurting and disrespectful. If you have a problem with that, just don't look at the posts. There will be people answering your questions. Posting one or two slightly digressing threats is not going to kill you. Why even make a fuss over this?

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-08-16 13:03:15)

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#20 2007-08-16 13:04:43

我流チン
Member

Re: A small complaint

I never cease to be amazed by the numbers of people who enter a site and promptly set about trying to force its denizens to conform with the newcomer's idea of the way things should be done.


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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#21 2007-08-16 13:07:07

Kscnoko
Member

Re: A small complaint

完全に同意!

その人は、他人の思いが我慢できていません。自分だけが考えています。

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-08-16 13:33:10)

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#22 2007-08-16 13:26:34

taekk
Administrator

Re: A small complaint

scout wrote:

While we're in the midst of bit of a re-organization, perhaps it's also the right time to bring up the lack of a designated forum for miscellaneous questions.  I've always taken "Other Japanese-Related Stuff" to be the unofficial place for completely miscellaneous posts (as evidenced by the Mumble thread,) however JKeyz's recent post about programming in the Events and Get-togethers has made me start to think either (a) that's  not the case or (b) it's not well enough publicized as such if it is the right place to go.

The reason I changed "Other Stuff" to "Other Japanese-Related Stuff" is because I didn't want totally unrelated topics, especially those cleverly disguised as spam. Now that the spam problem has mostly been solved, I'm debating between changing that back or deleting JKeyz's posts.

Do we want a place to talk about programming or other totally unrelated topics? Thoughts? Opinions?

-Tae Kim

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#23 2007-08-16 13:44:24

Koryo
Member

Re: A small complaint

I don't think we really need a place to talk about unrelated matters such as programming.  When it comes up in the course of other conversations, then we talk about them anyway.  To pick on programming as an example, if my original intent was to ask a general question about programming, I'd just go elsewhere.  On the other hand if I had a question about conversion between JIS X 0213 and the extended Unicode planes, that's related to Japanese, and there's already a place for that here.

Then again, if other people want a place to talk about the latest football game between Argentina and Paraguay, I see no reason to object.

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-16 13:45:51)


「正しい判断は経験から生まれ、経験は間違った判断から生まれる。」

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#24 2007-08-16 13:54:41

Kscnoko
Member

Re: A small complaint

We on this forum generally do not ask off-topic questions directly. Indeed, slightly digressing topics do come up in conversations, but almost nobody took offense to that. Yes, it is very strange that after two months I have been on this forum, no one has been complaining of new knowledge and infomation they gained from these "off-topic posts."

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#25 2007-08-16 14:05:33

我流チン
Member

Re: A small complaint

Ah - well seeing as how we are digressing (is that permitted?) ...

I dearly wish that I could answer questions about English in the askers' native tongues. Unfortunately, lacking the requisite skills, I can answer those questions only in English. That is very definitely not the optimal method of addressing matters.


・・・・・・・・・・
If the going is slow, you have time to admire the flowers.
よろしければ、日本語の間違いを直していただけますか?
[color=blue]「幸せとお弁当なのよ」[/color]

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