Book reviews and comments

Koryo · 2007-08-18 02:52:24

I was considering putting this in the Mumble thread, but thought it might be handy to separate it. Obviously this is intended for books written in Japanese or about Japanese in some way.

As pink~hime put it: ME FIRST!

Title: チャレンジ小学国語辞典第四版
Publisher: ベネッセコーポレーション
ISBN: 978-4-8288-0449-1

Pros:
- looks nice, it's generally well typeset, the colours are easy on the eyes
- decent quality paper
- furigana for all kanji in definitions and examples
- nice flexible binding: it stays open easily without having to break the spine
- cost: 1810円
- bonus: wall poster of all the 常用1-6年漢字
- very simple definitions (it's targetted at 小学生, so I take this as a good thing)
- one example sentence for each sense

Cons:
- while mostly well typeset, unfortunately the typeface used for the headwords is a little hard on my eyes, but I've never been a fan of bold gothic faces for kanji and kana
- limited range of headwords; this is to be expected since it's aimed at 小学生 students, but I still feel that it's quite limited

Notes:
Presently, I'm reading るろうに剣心, ヒカルの碁, and ライフ. I didn't expect it to be of much help with るろうに剣心, but it seems to contain most of the vocabulary that I've had to look up outside of historical figures and events like 大久保利通. However, I was somewhat surprised there weren't entries for 西南戦争 or 新撰組.

For ヒカルの碁, it seems to contain almost all words except for some go-specific terms such as 棋聖. It also seems to cover a majority of the vocabulary found in ライフ as well, but I haven't made it that far in; perhaps I'll update this part later.

It essentially useless for looking up certain words used in the construction of grammar. E.g., 「かい」、「たい」の「い」

Recommended for:
- people using government approved early reading material and material designed for foreign learners who want a print 国語 dictionary

Against:
- if you're reading anything more complex than るろうに剣心, this will be essentially useless for you; even if you're just reading books and manga like るろうに剣心, you'll still be wanting to know what 御庭番 is

Summary:
It's a nice book at a good price, but the limited number of headwords severely reduces its usefulness for people learning Japanese as a second language. If you really want a print 国語辞典 cough up 8190円 and get a copy of the 大辞林.

Don't get me wrong; I like it for what it is, but it's simply too limited for what I enjoy reading. If it had the scope of headwords that the 大辞林 or maybe even the 明鏡国語辞典 has but kept the short simple definitions and examples from the チャレンジ小学国語辞典, I think it would be great to accompany reading material. Sometimes when looking up words in the 大辞林, I spend longer figuring out the definition than reading the page on which I found the word. Again, this isn't necessarily bad, it just interrupts the flow when I feel like reading.

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-19 23:07:47)

Kscnoko · 2007-08-18 09:30:46

I think only large scale dictionaries cover Rurounin Kenshin's terms. Why bother with searching in dictionary when you can go online?

Koryo · 2007-08-18 09:35:21

[these replies apply to me; some can be generalised]
1. I hate computers. I'm a closet Luddite.
2. I hate reading on computer screens.
3. Computers don't work without power, and the Internet doesn't work when the cable connection goes down. Well, the Internet does, but I can't access it then.
4. When I feel like reading at a coffee shop, I can take the paper dictionary.
5. I like books.
6. I think I remember more easily when I read something on paper. When using the Internet and a computer, I instinctively don't bother remembering the content and only store where to find the content.

Electronic dictionaries take the middle ground and I quite recommend picking one up everyone should it be in her or his budget.

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-18 09:39:04)

scout · 2007-08-18 10:16:19

Thanks for the review! I'm still looking forward to getting my copy in the next week or so. I especially like your reason number 4 above. Personally I don't like having to take out a laptop to look words up if I'm sitting in a big leather chair at a coffee shop.

BTW, of the manga you mentioned, do you have a sense of the age range it's intended for?

Koryo · 2007-08-18 10:33:35

scout wrote:

BTW, of the manga you mentioned, do you have a sense of the age range it's intended for?

Erp! I'm bad enough at estimating target ages in my native language.

Maybe something like,
ヒカルの碁　　小学五年以上
るろうに剣心　中学一年以上
ライフ　　　　中学三年以上 (largely because of content and not diction and grammar)
Oh, also note that ライフ is very sparing on the text; pages with 3 dialog bubbles each with one very brief sentence isn't rare at all. It's quite like the ドラマ in that sense.

Please note that I'm only about half-way through a single volume of each of these, and regardless I'm sure our native speakers will be able to give you a much more accurate idea of the target ages.^^

I'd be happy to snap a bunch of pictures of some sample pages if you'd like for any of them.

scout · 2007-08-18 10:58:03

Actually, if you're willing, I wouldn't mind a few more pictures of the various sections of the kanji dictionary. (I'll probably wait for you to do a review of that one before I order one. That is, assuming you're planning to

Regarding the intended ages, I was mostly trying to get a sense of where the dictionary really cut off in terms of usefulness. But even in more advanced texts, I'm sure a good number of the words I don't know will still be of the 小学生 level. Getting a larger dictionary is a double edge sword ... more entries to sift through when you're looking for something along with an increased size/weight. If I can spare the cash, my guess is an electronic dictionary will be the next step up.

愛の天使 · 2007-08-18 14:58:35

Hmmm... So far, I noticed many people purchase japanese language dictionaries (books), several of those dictionaries...
However, there are loads of completely free dictionaries (J-E, E-J, J-J, etc.) around the web, and with all possible entries you may wish for.. I understand many people prefer written stuff..
However, I am perfectly satisfied with online dictionaries (well, actually, I mostly use JWPce and Wakan, 2 freeware offline programs that rock ), because:
1) they are free forever, no money needed )
2) fastest searches ever
3) access is fast, and there are different dictionaries, you can choose of what you like more
4) a book might get torn, or coffee may spilt, or dog/animal, child/any_person could wreck it (*sigh*), while online dictionaries never die.

Hmm I am not sure about books like "how to memorize kanji", or "japanese grammar guide" though...
Those might be useful...
I'd rather use money to buy anime DVDs (well, that's (just) me, 'cause I love anime more than 日本語 itself )
Anyway, should go do some things now, off I go..~!

Last edited by 愛の天使 (2007-08-18 14:59:51)

pazu · 2007-08-18 18:15:02

The trouble of looking up entries in dictionaries is part of my motivation to memorize a word. If it's too easy to look them up (like in rikaichan), I just won't remember. As someone else mentioned (Koryo, I believe), electronic dictionaries provide the perfect middle ground.

我流チン · 2007-08-19 14:24:58

Generally with manga, the target age range is easy to determine. (Pay careful attention to the "generally" there.) The protagonist will be around the same age as that of the target audience. るろうに剣心 is a good example of a story where the main characters are older - but even there, key secondary characters are the right age.

Manga for pre-teens will usually feature strong roles by parents, and supportive teachers - the latter being predominant. Quite often, the parents will be parented by the key character.

Teens: Parents, if they appear in the manga at all, are fairly well kept in the background (often no more than voices off) - though karekano and ouran high school host club are notable exceptions. The stories often include teachers who are very ... different.

Osaka_Joe · 2007-08-19 22:28:52

No one talks about Vagabond here. Isn't it famous at all?

Koryo · 2007-08-19 22:57:46

Hmm, desite it apparently having an official English translation and release, I hadn't heard of the series until you mentioned it. Perhaps I'll look into it next time I make a book order. Do you recommend it?

Osaka_Joe · 2007-08-19 23:05:21

BEST! That's something even guys around 40 can enjoy. But I am not sure how good it is as a study material.

BTW, have you every wondered why it's called るろうに剣心? 「るろうに」？

Last edited by Osaka_Joe (2007-08-19 23:06:39)

modernic2007 · 2007-08-19 23:44:27

Why?

Koryo · 2007-08-20 00:00:48

Thanks for the suggestion, Osaka_Joe While I'm not quite 40 yet, I'll be sure to check it out. =P

I had assumed it was a portmanteau of sorts coined by the author based on 流浪 and 浪人, but hadn't though about it beyond that. Am I far off?

Last edited by Koryo (2007-08-20 00:04:09)

Osaka_Joe · 2007-08-20 01:28:22

One guy in my office just explained to me that it was initially 流浪人剣心　（るろうにん　けんしん）, but the sound was considered a bit awkward, and they simply dropped ん to make るろうに　けんしん.

It also might be interesting to dig into the history of that era.

Kyoufu · 2007-08-20 04:53:44

Osaka_Joe wrote:

No one talks about Vagabond here. Isn't it famous at all?

It's popular among those who read manga, but anime has always been bigger then manga in the west. This may be because
american comics are still so popular.

I think for series like berserk, death note and claymore, they actually licensed and published the anime before the manga. I don't think this is to uncommon, even for popular mangas.

我流チン · 2007-08-20 22:52:02

BTW, have you every wondered why it's called るろうに剣心? 「るろうに」？

In idle moments, yes. I'm guessing it has to do with someone who has lost his "belong," rather than one who is an idle wanderer. るろうに applies (or applied) to Jews in the (past?) vernacular.

bubblebath · 2007-09-12 20:09:36

*Strong Recommendation*

Tokyo: a certain style
the texts and photos by Tsuzuki Kyouichi

the link to amazon.co.jp http://www.amazon.com/Tokyo-Certain-Sty … 0811824233

Our actual life space is full of stuffs. The style is far from a sophisticated so-called Zen life, but it's comfortable and enjoyable for us!

Last edited by bubblebath (2007-09-12 20:09:51)

Kscnoko · 2007-09-12 20:12:16

Is it true all 東京人 are workaholics?

bubblebath · 2007-09-12 20:16:01

Kscnoko wrote:

Is it true all 東京人 are workaholics?

我不知道. 　I don't know that because I don't make friends with all tokyoites.
The book is a gem!

Last edited by bubblebath (2007-09-12 20:21:33)

Kscnoko · 2007-09-12 20:21:54

すみません。東京人だと思います。どこに住みます？

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-09-12 20:28:06)

bubblebath · 2007-09-26 17:29:57

Here's my recommendation: アラビアの夜の種族

聖遷暦１２１３年。偽りの平穏に満ちたエジプト。迫り来るナポレオン艦隊、侵掠の凶兆に、迎え撃つ支配階級奴隷アイユーブの秘策はただひとつ、極上の献上品。それは読む者を破滅に導き、歴史を覆す書物、『災厄の書』――。アイユーブの術計は周到に準備される。権力者を眩惑し滅ぼす奔放な空想。物語は夜、密かにカイロの片隅で譚り書き綴られる。「妖術師アダームはほんとうに醜い男でございました……」。驚異の物語、第一部！

amazon

Very mesmeric and entertaining story. 漢字の使い方も面白いので、Kscnokoにもお薦め!

Last edited by bubblebath (2007-09-26 17:32:03)

Kscnoko · 2007-09-26 17:48:24

非常感謝!

scout · 2007-10-07 14:07:33

Now that I've been using the チャレンジ小学国語辞典 for a month and some change, I figure it's time for me to add my own comments.

Overall, I really like it. I find it highly motivating to be able to do things in manner that is similar to how (I envision) a native Japanese speaker would. In this case, that typically entails sitting down in a coffee shop with a stack of books and this dictionary. In this secluded location there isn't a single word of English (if you discount the writing on the coffee shop's napkins) and it feels great -- it really helps to reinforce that "I can do this."

I don't think I feel so limited by the number of entries as Koryo described. I've used it while reading キノの旅, げんしけん, ツバサ, Bleach, よつばと, and a few others that I'm sure I'm forgetting. A decent number of the words in げんしけん are not in it, while at least 2/3 of the words I want to look up from キノ are. Just about all the words from よつばと and ツバサ are in it. The problem I have is generally not that the word selection is limited -- it's that the ability to look up words when you don't know the reading is limited. If the kanji used are not learned in grades 1-6, and you can't guess the reading, you're pretty much SOL. Assuming one of the kanji is learned in grades 1-6, you can look it up in the radical table. It's organized by stroke order and onyomi. Slightly painful, but not that bad. From there, you can look up the kanji information. With キノ's I've had good luck finding a lot of words listed among the kanji compounds. If it's there, you can go and look up the word directly. If not, you're pretty much SOL. I've tried looking up words just by knowing an onyomi for the first kanji, and it's highly time consuming, and rarely yields results.

I really like the entries themselves. Here is a sample page. The entries have furigana over everything, which I find highly helpful. There have been more than a few cases where I've been unsure over a kanji's reading. (e.g. is 盛る in this definition もる or さかる? It completely disambiguates it.) As best as I can tell, the words in the definitions only use kanji if they were learned in grades 1-6. If you directly look up those words, the kanji will be listed under the kana headword, even if they weren't in grades 1-6. The entries contain lots of example sentences, and use simple language. There have been more than a few cases where I could understand チャレンジ's definitions, when 大事林's was confusing. It's also very nice to see things described simply, in language that more approximates the vocabulary I can use. A lot of times when speaking or writing, I find myself running into things I can't express in Japanese. I used to think "well, that means I just don't have a big enough vocabulary yet." Seeing words defined simply often shows that it's more of a matter of learning how to put the together the words you already know rather than a simple lack of vocabulary.

The dictionary also contains numerous illustrations (example 1, example 2). There are also cross-references - the entry for ひざ on the page linked to in the paragraph above has a reference to the からだ entry, which has a picture. This is very useful for new words, when you're not always sure you exactly got what was meant. Pictures are definitely worth a thousand words.

There are also some very interesting bonuses throughout the dictionary: ガッテンことば教室, 使い分け, 総合的な学習コラム, and ことばにチャレンジ！. Some other nifty features are pages about (and diagrams of) 手話 and a list of radicals along with their names. There are also entries for expressions that come after the main entry.

Another nice feature of using a paper dictionary is that it helps you to learn the kana order, and how to incorporate dakutens and small kana into that order. I'm going to step out on a limb and guess that's similar to how Japanese bookstores are organized. I know I've definitely found them hard to navigate in the past. I'm hoping that having internalized a few simple ordering rules will help me out the next time I'm in one.

My only real gripe is that the kanji table in the back doesn't list all of the 常用 kanji. It would have only taken up a few more pages, and would have made the dictionary much more useful when you don't know a word's reading. I'm tempted to try to find such a list online and carry it with me.

The book has been holding up fairly well, though I've basically decided to sacrifice my current copy to my goal of learning Japanese. Carrying and using a large book doesn't lend itself well to keeping it in pristine condition. I personally found the dust cover is highly annoying when trying to use a book of this size. (It kept slipping off, or the bok would start to slip out when carrying it.) For those who are interested, there is also a larger version available at amazon.co.jp. (I got the compact version.) I'm highly considering getting one of those to keep with me at work.

Last edited by scout (2007-10-07 14:10:05)

我流チン · 2007-10-07 15:23:36

Scout: If I hadn't already spent this month's allocation for books (and the next 3 months allocation as well), I'd be sore tempted to invest.

Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

#1 2007-08-18 02:52:24

Book reviews and comments

#2 2007-08-18 09:30:46

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