Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

To address questions and improvements for the Japanese Grammar Guide as well as topics concerning Japanese in general.

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#1 2007-10-15 20:08:51

Gin-Gin
Member

それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Hello,

     My first time posting here and beginner at Japanese for the most part.  I'd like to know if there is any real difference in meanings for the 2 above mentioned sentences.  They both mean 'It is white' more or less, right?

     On an added note how is the '-shite imasu ' similar or different to plain old 'desu'?  I only as because in a straight forward translation of the former phrase it's like saying one is doing something. (and in this case, doing the color white,....if that makes sense....)


Thanks in advance! 宜しくお願いします~!

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#2 2007-10-15 20:19:38

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

This isn't the best example to illustrate the difference really... it mostly comes down to sentence structure and what should be modifying what as well as intrinsic vs extrinsic properties:

ある状態・性質であることを示す。
 「鋭い目付きをした男」
 「むじゃきな顔をした子供たち」

ⅹ 鋭い目付きです男
ⅹ むじゃきな顔です子供たち

ⅹ 鋭い目付きだ男
ⅹ むじゃきな顔だ子供たち

△ 鋭い目付きである男
△ むじゃきな顔である子供たち

〇 鋭い目付きをした男
〇 むじゃきな顔をした子供たち

Related constructs / concepts being:

ある状態・現象の起きたことやその存在がおのずと感じられる。
 「稲光がする」
 「地鳴りがする」
 「物音がする」
 「においがする」
 「寒けがする」
 「動悸(どうき)がする」

and

(多く「…を…にする」「…を…とする」の形で)人や物事を今とはちがった状態のものにならせる。ある地位に就かせたり、ある用に当てたりする。
 「息子を先生にする」
 「彼を会長にする」
 「肘(ひじ)を曲げて枕とする」
 「失敗を教訓として生かす」

Like the first of the above definitions says それは白い色をしている means that それ is in the state of having some attribute while それは白い simply declares that それ is white.

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-10-15 20:21:45)


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#3 2007-10-16 00:43:28

Gin-Gin
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Thank you, Faumdano.  You're explanation was quite...deep for me. ^^;;;;
I'm not too brushed up on my reading skills so it will take awhile to use the dictionary and decipher all that text (I guess it's a good way to practice more....^^;;;;)

I'm assuming the 4 sets of phrases up top can be translated the same way?....(keen-eyed man / innocent faced children)  I guess my real hang up is <i>when</i> to use a particular wording even though (to my english) it translate the same as the other 3.  When is an appropriate time to use desu vs shiteimasu?  (I'm aware that the 'desu', 'de aru', and  'da' is based on familiarity/politeness...)

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#4 2007-10-16 01:15:05

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

The ones marked ⅹ are thoroughly ungrammatical, the ones marked with △ have a nonsensical meaning. The ones marked 〇 are correct.


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#5 2007-10-16 01:22:46

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

No amount of translation effort will tell you when to use which. Exposure to as much Japanese as you can get your eyes and ears on is really the only way.

[http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan]rikaichan[/url] will help you a lot.

です」 after an adjective has nothing to do with 「である」 or 「だ」 (even after a noun/adjectival noun, it's barely related: the polite form of 「である」 is 「であります」 and 「だ」 doesn't really have one: it actually imparts a stronger meaning than does 「です」). Also, the sooner you can start thinking in plain form rather than polite (「している」 rather than 「しています」 etc), the better.

Anyway, really, the translations are quite different:
このボールは白い: this ball is white.
このボールは白い色をしている (not する?): this ball has a white color.
彼女はいい目をする (している?): she has nice eyes.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#6 2007-10-16 01:26:24

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

このボールは白い色をしている (not する?): this ball has a white color.

このボールは白い色をしている - the ball has taken on a white colour
このボールは白い色をする - the ball takes on a white colour / ...will take on...


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#7 2007-10-16 01:32:03

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Hrm, thanks Faundano. This particular usage of 「する」 has always been a trouble for me. I need to double check the text I read about it (not that I really trust that text, but I want to know what form it used (する・している) and just see what else it has to say (not much iirc))


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#8 2007-10-16 03:07:12

Yokohama
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

このボールは白い色をする

I wonder whether you are sure or not, but there is no such Japanese.

You can say,
このボールは白い: This ball is white.
このボールは白い色をしている: This ball has a white color. This is white in color. 
but you can not say このボールは白い色をする since the ball is inanimate.

You can however say,
彼女はいい目をしている。: She has nice eyes.
彼女はいい目をする。: She put nice eyes on when shooting, or something.

彼はいい顔をしている。: He is handsome. or He is putting a good face on( his boss).
彼はいい顔をする。: He puts a good face on. He shows pleasure on his face. or.....

And, is there any difference between "it is red":それは赤い and "it is red in color"それは赤い色をしている in English? In japanese they are the same in meaning in most cases.

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#9 2007-10-16 12:24:31

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

And, is there any difference between "it is red":それは赤い and "it is red in color"それは赤い色をしている in English? In japanese they are the same in meaning in most cases.

"it is red"
"it is red in color"
I can't really see any difference between the meaning in these. Nothing jumps out at me as an obvious difference in implication.


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#10 2007-10-16 13:41:09

Andy
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Just a thought, but perhaps for distinguishing homonyms in speech. For example:

This old book is still red (in color).
This old book is still read.

But this can generally be determined from context as well.

Last edited by Andy (2007-10-16 13:41:48)

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#11 2007-10-16 15:18:01

Kscnoko
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Gin-Gin wrote:

Thank you, Faumdano.  You're explanation was quite...deep for me. ^^;;;;
I'm not too brushed up on my reading skills so it will take awhile to use the dictionary and decipher all that text (I guess it's a good way to practice more....^^;;;;)

I'm assuming the 4 sets of phrases up top can be translated the same way?....(keen-eyed man / innocent faced children)  I guess my real hang up is <i>when</i> to use a particular wording even though (to my english) it translate the same as the other 3.  When is an appropriate time to use desu vs shiteimasu?  (I'm aware that the 'desu', 'de aru', and  'da' is based on familiarity/politeness...)

First forget about である。 It's not even used usually. Then there is だ the copula. Again the copula is not necessary for ending a sentence. You can say both これは魚 or それは魚だ which have the same meaning. (Beside the tone). です may or may not be a copula depending on cases, but for avoiding confusion treat it not as one. Instead think it only as a politeness marker. Whenever there is no verb ending a sentence, add です。

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-10-16 15:51:38)

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#12 2007-10-16 15:52:37

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

である isn't so common as a sentence ender outside rather academic or formal works, however it is vital in subordinate(?) clauses:

ⅹ 勇者だ者は…
ⅹ 勇者です者は…
〇 勇者である者は…
△ (勇者たる者は…)
△ (勇者なる者は…)

Last edited by Faumdano (2007-10-16 15:52:53)


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#13 2007-10-16 16:33:36

Kscnoko
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

What's with all those squares and triangles today? Everyone seems to use them more often now. hehe

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-10-16 16:33:47)

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#14 2007-10-16 17:27:52

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Yokohama: ah, thankyou. That's sorted that out nicely for me smile.

As for "red in color", I have to agree with Faumdano and Andy: it's more disambiguation than a difference in meaning.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#15 2007-10-16 19:04:30

Gestalt
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Kscnoko wrote:

What's with all those squares and triangles today? Everyone seems to use them more often now. hehe

× bad
△ borderline
○  good
◎ Very good

smile

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#16 2007-10-16 19:47:23

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Faumdano: apparently, 「勇者な者は」 isn't wrong, though it would probably get a double △. (not wrong, because it works in some circumstances, eg 「あの者は、勇者なのだ」, but strange because 「~なのだ」 is generally considered to be a difference grammar, however, that 「な」 is 「だ」's 連体形)

However, 「AであるB」 is certainly much more common smile

Kscnoko: in anime, 「である。」 is very common in narrative. It's also quite common in essays (eg, on Wikipedia) though more often the sentences just end on the noun. There, 「である」 seems (to me) to lend a little more emphasis (or something, I have yet to figure out just what), unless the whole article is written using 「である」, in which case it's just giving the whole article a more formal air.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#17 2007-10-16 19:59:12

Kscnoko
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

勇者な者 looks weird to me.... 勇者の ? because 勇者 is not a na-adjective but a noun. In fact 勇者 already means someone who is brave, adding 者 seems to be repetitive.

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-10-16 20:23:46)

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#18 2007-10-16 20:09:18

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

The 「な」 on na-adjectives is だ (in 連体形). There is no 「な」 particle. Also, the 「に」 on na-adjectives in adverbial form (eg, 「きれいになった」) is also 「だ」, but in 連用形.

「勇者な[名詞]」 doesn't seem to be all that rare.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#19 2007-10-16 20:18:22

Yokohama
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

勇者な者 looks weird to me

I agree with you, Kscnoko.

「勇者な[名詞]」 doesn't seem to be all that rare.

They are all different usage or strange expressions, I believe.

And, this is just for your information as a native speaker of Japanese.

ⅹ 勇者だ者は… → agree
ⅹ 勇者です者は… → agree
〇 勇者である者は… → disagree, should be △, and 勇者は, for it is redundant, and means "a person who is a brave man."
△ (勇者たる者は…)→ disagree, ○: It means "a person who is worth as a brave man."
△ (勇者なる者は…)→ disagree, ○: It means "a person who is considered to be a brave man by others."

Last two are literary expression though.

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#20 2007-10-16 20:24:55

Kscnoko
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

勇敢な者 seems to be  the correct usage.

Btw what's the difference between もの (者) and 人?

Last edited by Kscnoko (2007-10-16 20:27:35)

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#21 2007-10-16 20:31:22

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Yokohama: I agree that it's weird/strange etc, but I believe it was you who told me that it's not wrong. (it was in these forums, about a year ago, and I'm 99% certain it was a native speaker, and about 95% certain it wasn't a dream).

One thing, it might be 「勇者~者」 specifically that's the problem, because the second 「者」 does seem to be redundant. Most of those google hits seem to be 「勇者な[人称]」


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#22 2007-10-16 20:40:38

Kscnoko
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

勇者 already meant a person who is brave/a brave person. Why add another 者?

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#23 2007-10-16 20:41:34

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Kscnoko: it seems that 「者」 isn't normally an independent noun. ie, it seems it usually follows some modifier.

《上に連体修飾語を伴って、形式名詞的に》そのような特質をもった人の意を表す。「若い者にはまだ負けない」「家(うち)の者に連絡する」「働き者・ひょうきん者」
◆「物」と同語源。
表現:単独で使う場合、軽視や髭の対象となることが多い。「次の方「人」は申し出て下さい」「次の者は申し出よ」のように、「者」は「方・人」と違って、敬語化になじまない。


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#24 2007-10-16 20:44:42

taniwha
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Kscnoko: exactly, thus it's redundant. For some reason, that's the example Faumdano chose (I wonder if he intended the second 者 to be a place holder for a personal noun)


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#25 2007-10-16 21:09:29

Yokohama
Member

Re: それは白い色をしています。 VS それは白いです。

Yokohama: I agree that it's weird/strange etc, but I believe it was you who told me that it's not wrong.

I am not sure who was me, but now that I can say it depends on users and their preference, since Japanese is one of the flexible languages.

As for 勇者な「名詞」, it sonds like "University of Harvard" instead of "Harvard University", I guess, it should be 勇者の「名詞」 in general.

勇者 already meant a person who is brave/a brave person. Why add another 者?

I guess it is a kind of expression like "a man among men" or something in English.

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