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#1 2008-03-07 19:36:53

ramune
Member

Passiv が*を

I´m wondering if both sentences are correct. Please tell me if the sentence with が is wrong and why. I´m also very interested if both sentences have the same meaning.

魚を猫に食べられちゃった。
魚が猫に食べられちゃった。

Is it possible that both sentences are correct, but have another meaning? I have the feeling that the first sentences (魚を猫に食べられちゃった。) emphasizes that the owner of the fish suffers(迷惑の受身), while the 2nd one(猫に魚が食べられちゃった。) seems to be neutral.  Its just an idea of me, so please tell me if you know it better.^^

Last edited by ramune (2008-03-07 19:57:33)

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#2 2008-03-07 20:06:22

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Passiv が*を

Both sound correct to me and I agree with your line of thinking. However, until a native speaker voices their opinion we can't know for sure, can we.

Last edited by Faumdano (2008-03-07 20:16:08)


蒔かぬ種は生えぬ

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#3 2008-03-07 20:14:38

ramune
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

Thanks for your reply. I think those kind of differences are often very hard to find out.

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#4 2008-03-07 20:50:11

creamyhorror
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

I think the same thing as you. The first one (魚を) seems like an example of the "suffering passive", in which (like you said) the owner of the fish suffers: "The (My) fish got eaten by the cat". The second (魚が) is more like a neutral passive construction: "The fish was eaten by the cat".


edit: lol, failed reply delayed this post by an hour

Last edited by creamyhorror (2008-03-07 20:50:38)

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#5 2008-03-07 21:29:19

運転者
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

My understanding is not quite in accord with CreamyHorror's. That first example very much looks like a "John got towed" construction: John himself did not get towed, his car did. Likewise here Fish が got eaten, the fish were eaten: Fish を got eaten, the fish suffered because something else got eaten (maybe the person who was suposed to feed them.)

But as Faumdano mentioned, input by native speakers would be essential on this one.


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#6 2008-03-07 21:45:21

Faumdano
Moderator

Re: Passiv が*を

魚を猫に食べられちゃった has a missing (understood) topic: 私は猫に魚を食べられちゃった I had my fish eaten by the cat (oh noes!)


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#7 2008-03-08 09:30:23

ms
Guest

Re: Passiv が*を

この場合は「を」のほうが、自分の「近く」にある感覚があると私は感じます。
話者に「なにかの感情」が含まれている感覚。

"The (My) fish got eaten by the cat"の感覚に近いけど、他人の場合にも「近さ」を感じられます。

「俺の妹が飼っていた魚が、猫に食べられた」
「俺の妹が飼っていた魚を、猫に食べられた」

この二つでは、後者のほうが「妹に同情する気持ち」とか、
「俺もあの魚が好きだったのに残念だ」「猫に怒っている」
などという気持ちが、少し見えるように感じます。
つまり兄は「妹」や「魚」に「親近感」「近さ」を感じながら話している。
前者は、ただ感情を抜きにして単純に説明しているだけの、第三者視点のような文にもなります。

なので、もし状況が加わって
「俺が窓を開けておいたので、妹が飼っていた魚を/が、猫に食べられた」
という文だったなら、「を」のほうが、少し「窓を開けたことを後悔・反省している」感じが大きい。
この文にどんどん色んな部品が加わっていくと、もっとはっきりした反省の色が出てきます。
「俺が窓を開けておいたせいで、妹が飼っていた魚を、猫に食べられてしまった」などのように。

こういう場合の「を」と「が」は微妙な違いなので、
特別に意識して使い分けている人はそんなにいないとは思いますけどね。

#8 2008-03-08 10:08:22

ramune
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

Thanks to all of you for your replies!
とても詳しいご説明、どうもありがとうございました。


ms wrote:

特別に意識して使い分けている人はそんなにいないとは思いますけどね。

それなら、「が」を使って「迷惑の受身」を表現にする場合もありますよね。

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#9 2008-03-08 10:12:43

Yokohama
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

I have the feeling that the first sentences (魚を猫に食べられちゃった。) emphasizes that the owner of the fish suffers(迷惑の受身), while the 2nd one(猫に魚が食べられちゃった。) seems to be neutral.  Its just an idea of me, so please tell me if you know it better.

As for 魚が猫に食べられちゃった。, first of all, you should notice the difference between られた and られちゃった(られてしまった) in this sentence,

魚が猫に食べられた。must be neutral, but 魚が猫に食べられちゃった。 doesn't seem to be neutral since ちゃった(てしまった) has already some feelings of sufferings in it in this case, for instance, he may be in trouble or he may feel sorry for the fish.

I am with you as to the other thought of yours.

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#10 2008-03-08 11:35:07

ramune
Member

Re: Passiv が*を

Thank you. It was foolish of me to use ・・ちゃった when I asked about the difference between が and を.

Last edited by ramune (2008-03-08 11:38:28)

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