Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Forum

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#1 2006-09-27 01:39:20

Hush
Member

Chinese & Pinyin

How bad is learning Chinese through (primarily) just Pinyin?

I would imagine it would be as bad as romanized Japanese but I was reading through the wiki for Chinese and I think it mentioned that some countries (Taiwan?) are using pinyin officially. Japanese kanji will be challenging me for a while still, so I was wondering how realistic would it be, if one wanted to get Chinese [to a "essential" grammar - general conversable level .. not advanced] but at the same time not endevour the some 4000 hanzi until (perhaps) a later time.

I've also seen Japanese students of Chinese learning the hanzi pronounciation from pinyin, and think also that is how Chinese children do it. So I want to make know how much of a disadvantage it would be to do that, or at least just learn the most frequently used hanzi (I think Tae mentioned something like just under 1000 for 80% of frequent usage in the 3yen comparison) for recognition. btw, am I alone in that the amount of kanji I can read is far (far) more than the amount I can write?


Off topic, but about korean, can someone explain the difference in pronounciation between:ㅐ ㅔ?

When I find sound files demonstrating the difference ㅔsound just like ㅐ but pronounced stronger & ㅒ& ㅖsound the same.


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#2 2006-09-27 07:33:57

antonxie
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

check out www.pinyin.info please.
china currently use hanyu pinyin
taiwan always strives to be different, so they have a set called tongyong pinyin, which is almost the same with hanyupinyin, but enough to cause confusion in the pinyin discombobulatory.
aside form hanyupinyin, taiwan educational system use zhuyin, which is not alphabetic in nature, more like Japanese Kana.

Learning Chinese by only mastering pinyin is easy, but meaningless. Enough to converse, but somehow deprave you of the ability to read and write which means you will end up illiterate after all the efforts.

ax

Last edited by antonxie (2006-09-27 07:34:14)


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#3 2006-09-27 18:39:23

taniwha
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

but somehow deprave you of the ability to read and write

"deprive" is the word you want here. "deprave" is rather different.

deprive: To dispossess; to bereave; to divest; to hinder from possessing; to debar; to shut out from; -- with a remoter object, usually preceded by of.

deprave: To make bad or worse; to vitiate; to corrupt.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#4 2006-09-29 13:33:03

antonxie
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

I stand corrected wink

ax


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郷に入れば、郷に寝違え。
When in Rome, eat Ramen.

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#5 2006-09-29 13:40:29

pink~hime
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

How high is china's litercay rate? since it does have more kanji(hanzi) than japanese?I expect that litercay may be just a smidge lower.


うまい書くことは、思いつけない。まぁ、変なことはいっぱいあるけど・・

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#6 2006-09-29 16:13:48

taekk
Administrator

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

Without hanzi, I think things would get too confusing to memorize words effectively. For instance, 坐 vs 做. In pinyin, it looks exactly the same.

I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot without hanzi.

-Tae Kim

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#7 2006-09-30 06:18:55

Hush
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

Thanks, I will reconsider, its just that using Wakan's 'common' character listing;
Hanzi = 4000 and Kanji = 2200ish
So the prospect of 'literacy' has a army of 6200 chinese stick figure's protecting it sad


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#8 2006-09-30 12:16:18

antonxie
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

Even if you know all the Kanji, you still need words wink
you might need to double effforts wink

ax


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郷に入れば、郷に寝違え。
When in Rome, eat Ramen.

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#9 2006-10-01 06:46:34

Hush
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

やる気を起こさせる話し方ジャナイ。。 wink


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#10 2006-10-01 12:27:19

pink~hime
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

if i was to ever learn any form of chinese it would be 台湾語! But im not going too ^^


うまい書くことは、思いつけない。まぁ、変なことはいっぱいあるけど・・

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#11 2006-10-01 19:40:26

antonxie
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

there is no such thing as 台湾語 wink
if you are refering to the languge spoken in Taiwan, then again, it's Chinese or some part of the world prefers to call it Mandarin. 簡体字 or 繁体字 does not make the difference of the language. It's just a style of writing. What makes it different is probably the choice of words and the use of slang and expression plus their way of thingking is way too far divided.
If you refer to 台語, then it's also called 閩南語 which is a variant of 福建話, a language widely spoken in Fujian province in China and also overseas Chinese in South East Asia. Although fellow Taiwanese opt to be different. When they first land their feet in Singapore they would be startled and say how come everyone speak 台語。

ax


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郷に入れば、郷に寝違え。
When in Rome, eat Ramen.

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#12 2007-07-26 14:00:30

taekk
Administrator

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

It's just a matter of time. I would not suggest learning multiple languages at the same time but in succession? No problem. I spent about 6 years learning or using Japanese and now I'm learning Mandarin. Hopefully after 6 years of that, I can go back and brush up on my Korean. Cantonese is probably last on my list unless I end up in Hong Kong or something.

So given 15-20 years, I'm sure mastering Chinese, Japanese, and Korean should be possible.

As for me, the hardest part of learning Chinese is the lack of grammar.
Kanji is actually harder in Japanese except that the traditional/simplified versions in Chinese are really annoying. There are a lot of people from Taiwan here so I can't seem to get away from having to learn both. Right now I'm only aiming to recognize traditional and read/write simplified.

With Korean, the hardest part would probably be the insane grammar. I'm glad I just "know it" from growing up with the language. Having to memorize the rules would be very difficult.

As for which language to start, I would say a good rule of thumb is meeting people from each country and seeing which culture fits you best.

-Tae Kim

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#13 2007-07-26 17:40:18

taniwha
Member

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

You can "punish" them by learning Japanese better than them smile

My motivation for continuing to learn Japanese is I can no longer stand subtitles and dubs are just vile, but there's far too many good shows to just give up (I've been watching without subs for two years now). That, and I want to go to Japan smile

And finally, the thing that's kept me going through the dark times when I despaired of ever "getting" Japanese: there is no can't.


Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
There is no can't. -- Duun

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#14 2007-07-28 15:11:09

taekk
Administrator

Re: Chinese & Pinyin

Well, I haven't gotten very far in Chinese so I'm not a tensei just yet. :-)

Don't worry, in my experience people who are not serious and interested in the language will never get very far. (Actually, they're even more obnoxious because they are still rude even if they can't even speak the language.)

As for motivation, my approach is to not pressure myself and just have fun with it. Meeting people is also a great motivator.

-Tae Kim

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